Combo Remapper - use score text and symbols to switch articulations
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Logic 8 Anyone still making complex environments?

Discussion in 'Logic 8' started by Peter Ostry, Jul 11, 2009.

  1. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    I opened a new thread because I didn't want to hijack the other one.

    Tangra, I do not know how long you are familiar with the Logic environment and I do certainly not want to discourage you but the last time I heard someone saying that he plans to release environment patches is quite a while ago and your statement made me curious. At least one of the macros you posted looks big enough to make serious troubles. Is all running well for you in Logic 8 or are you fighting the system?

    If you do this kind of work for several years now ... you must be a very brave man.


    And now my "public" question, according to the subject:

    Does anyone of you - who went through several major Logic upgrades - still make big complex environments? With "big" I mean running into the cable length limit, objects per macro or object size, vanishing messages, broken functionality after upgrades, this kind of stuff. All people I know (including myself) more or less stopped these stunts after major projects became disfunctional or got frozen.

    With version 8 Logic is clearly going into another direction, more audio, more automatisms, more one-in-all. How is the situation for you environment builders, do you still try to realize your technical phantasies in Logic or did you reduce complicated processing or did you switch to Max and other solutions?

    In case you switched, do you control Logic remotely or do you use "the other thing" in parallel?
  3. Pete Thomas

    Pete Thomas Administrator Staff Member

    Well, my combo remapper (shameless plug) which lets you use text and symbols directly in the score to change articulations in most (or all) software instruments is quite complex. Way too much for a Logic 7 macro. Is this complex or just nursery stuff:

  4. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Thanks for the attention !
    I think I'm in this business more then 10 years. You are right - after Logic 5 ( which had one of the most rock solid environments ) in L6,7x we had very serious problems with many objects which crashed the macros etc... In L8.0 there was cable macro crash which was fixed in L8.1, after that there was a little problem in the sysex faders in 8.1 which was fixed in 8.2.
    During these years I did very deep environment researches and tests, so even during the very bad versions I could find ways to build new gears which can replace the bug objects.
    Well, Logic is based on a huge environment, so it is its power. Somehow after Swiftkick many environment designers threw it away cause of the bugs... I decided to stay and work hard over the problems an make new Logic Environment generation which can work as AU plugins, supporting lots of Presets which can be recalled using custom Program changes, Save in real time, internal Macro clipboards which can easy copy and paste the presets so you can make new preset version etc... For this purpuse I developed the new "Macro Header".
    For the Macro size and proper work I'm based on my deep researches, so I know the size of every object, how to replace/optimize a big scheme into a few objects etc... For several years I developed the idea for the Macro Ensembles - so believe or not I can control all of the RMX Parts just by single key hit on your keyboard which will send more then 1500 parameter settings for example thanks to my new Keyswitcher tool. I'm working on the "RMX Power Control" more then 2 years which a huge entire macro ensemble - it is in a test period and for now it works perfect, so I'm on dead line which the videos and the documentation: see some features of it here:
    Hope to release and some unbelievable tools which for long time many Logic experts think that are not possible like Chord translation, live play midi quantization "Input Quantize" which is Pre... For example I developed the Chord Translator which is a small macro ensemble which can recognize any chord in any position in any octave and translate to a custom note like the Kontakt Akkord Guitar scrip does. Here is a non official no voice over video of it where i demonstrate my ethnic EXS tamboura section instruments ( chord instrument ), and after that I show how to map for the Logic 12 string chord GT.

    Chord Translator Video - Download
    Chord Translator Logic Demo - Download

    Every one can try the demo of the second link above which is limited to Major chords only. There is a "How to Operate" in the Logic marker list I think.
    Do not try to DOUBLE click the text fader - to open it since there is a Logic bug which crashes Logic when a text fader is packed two times in a macro. I fixed that in one macro now ( in the old version I needed double pack to keep some message order ).
    This will open new development doors making possible of Logic Style Arranger which operates as hardware workstation synths ( Intro, Main A,B, Fill A,B Ending etc.. ) while you play left hand harmony chords hold by new Midi Hold/Latch tool.... I have successful entries of it. So take care - Logic is still very good environment app, just must know it as your wife..:thmbup:
  5. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Certainly not nursery stuff Pete, but more brainwork. Not complex in a way that it would make technical problems. At least not until you try to pack it in macros, divide it into modules for that and need serial communication between the modules.
  6. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Would be very interesting if you could explain this, basically. I assume that not the patches themselves are in a plugin, correct? Do you use an AU plugin that controls your patches or how does it work?
  7. alienimplant

    alienimplant Senior member

    VERY interesting. :)
  8. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Everything is based on the Logic environment objects and possibilities. I just give the example whith AU reagrding that the Environment designer must think not only that this scheme must work - it must has very well desing GUI which is easy to operate, import into other projects, and to support saving, loading lots of parameter presets ( in real time while Logic is runing to be able to make A/B compare ) and at the and it will be best it all Midi Processor plugins support exteranl parameter CC# control and Prg ( i.e key switching ) of the presets.
    For example Cubase has it's own midi plugins, Kontakt has it own midi Scripts Midi Preprocessors etc... Why Logic not ?????????
    But note, most do not support external midi control - i.e they are dead at least for me. As an example I gave my "RMX Power Control" ...
    Can you imagine instead stop Logic and manualy load Stylus Multi preset, you play one key of your synth and all 8 parths load your multiple part presets instantly.
    Regarding the Header presets/patches. You make your work in the Midi Plugin editor twisting parameters while you are pleased ( note Logic is running ). Your work is temporary stored in a special Macro clipboard, so when you decide to store in a preset you can select a preset cell numer from the presets header menu and hit "Save" while Logic is runing. You have an Pgrogram change assign box in the Header too... so you can assign custom Program change for that Preset like you do in your hardware midi reverb processor etc...CC# for the Presets is available too. So in the upper RMX example we have much better synth edit workspace - no sub tabs like the envelopes. New vectors faders etc... You have full CC# external control of all parameters thanks to the universal map which comes with the RMX Power Control ( no need to learn parameters etc... ). You can recall your Editor Presets using Prg ( Program names Supported ) for each part directly from the Logic Arrange track Prg ( Box ) in the Inspector. You have a full set of Hyper Sets in the Hyper Editor, so you can go there and find "Named" definition for Each RMX parameter, Part etc... Hope see what work it is, so it is quite complicated to give some base information for the Environments internal parts... This can be made in some special training courses where I can outline some parts of the deep Environment research.
    In the end I will be happy if more and more people start again to develop entire Environment tools. Here I did not wish to make any advertisement of me or my tools. I just wish to say - YES, ALL THIS IS POSSIBLE, GO....
  9. JoeA

    JoeA New Member

    I haven't made anything big lately, but I am still using my large multi-EXS drum instrument Environment (attached screenshot), which includes performance gestures and a custom drum mixer that controls sample selection, plugin controls, and includes Environment-based presets.

    Every major update has broken something - 8.1 introduced the SysEx Fader bug mentioned by Tangra which affected my patch saving/recall, which I had to find a workaround for.. Plus, I stopped using Macros when that issue first surfaced.. (I wish Logic would just update the EXS - most high-end samplers have the features I use this Environment for, like sample randomization and multitimbral capability for drum kits - but I guess that's another topic)..

    With other apps moving in the direction of greater customization capabilities (Live+Max), I seriously hope Logic at least maintains the Environment, even if it's too much to hope that they'll pump it up further.. Even just as it is, it's a powerful tool, if they can get it to settle down..


    Attached Files:

  10. lowgic

    lowgic New Member

    yes! many years ago I was wishing for max/msp to be the environment. Now it's a reality, but in the wrong program! The same with touch tracks, they could have been Ableton Live...Hopefully Apple has big plans for us.
  11. johnpitcairn

    johnpitcairn Member

    I'm not making environments anymore, except as quick little problem-solvers.

    Large stuff like Fadermapper is definitely dead for me, it's a maintenance nightmare when you don't know what's going to be broken, fixed or re-broken in the next version of Logic.

    I still use some of my old environments though, especially synth-editors. It's nice to have the sysex-fader input parsing working again, I've been able to dust off some stuff that only worked in 5.x.

    I really don't think the environment will be upgraded. I think it very likely it will simply be removed.

    These days I do just about all my complex stuff in Max, which has the advantage of being usable with any app, not just Logic. I think that when Max4Live is released and reliable, that will be where I'm headed.
  12. lowgic

    lowgic New Member

    joe- that picture is amazing

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