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Logic 9 click track

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by jabo, May 25, 2011.

  1. jabo

    jabo Member

    Hey Guys -
    I've just realized, much to my dismay that when I change the tempo of a piano roll click track that I've created, it changes the tempo of all the tracks to match. While this sounds like a great feature, for the particular project I'm working on, it is a detriment. Is there someway I can prevent this? Thanks as always.
  3. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Not sure why that would be an issue. Are you saying you want to have 2 or 3 tracks, each with a different tempo?
  4. jabo

    jabo Member

    Yes. For this particular project, I'm trying to match the tempo of unclicked tracks provided to me. Therefore, when I try to match the click to those tracks, it changes the tempo of the original tracks and the click I've created is still off. Any ideas.
  5. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    OK, this is still unclear, so I'll try one more time before I give up...

    Let me see if I get this:

    1) you have multiple tracks (I'm assuming there are 3 or 4 "songs" that you are calling tracks"

    2) you are attempting to create a tempo map for the tracks (songs)

    3) You have all the tracks in the same start location, so when you change the tempo fpr one and make it match, it's fine, as soon as you select the next track and change the tempo, the first track is no longer in time?????


    You have an audio track and the "follow tempo" box is selected, when you change the tempo, the audio track stretches, and therefore stays out of time.

    It's either one or the other, which one?
  6. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Hi Jabo,

    If I understand correctly (and I'm not entirely certain that I do) would locking the smpte position of your MIDI click track do the trick?

    That way, when you change Logic's tempo, the click track will still continue to sound the same as it did at the original tempo. But the MIDI note positions will be altered.
  7. jabo

    jabo Member

    Hey Eli -
    Thanks for the help. I'm new to Logic, so forgive me if these questions seem ridiculous. As far as I know, I'm not using any SMPTE, but maybe I am. Is there a way that I can make sure that the original audio track (the track I'm trying to match the tempo of) is not changed when I create a click track? The box to match tempo in the inspector is not available. I assume that is because it's an audio file instead of a new track. Any ideas? Thanks again.
  8. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Try this:

    * Place your file in the Arrange Window

    * Load in a click sound on the EXS 24

    * Play the song and record yourself tapping along quarter notes to the music as you are hearing it.

    * Edit the recorded MIDI track as needed so that it is on as close as possible with the recorded audio.

    * Once done, select your original audio region and choose "lock smpte position" from under the region menu.

    * Open up the Beat Mapping Global track.

    * Select your MIDI guide track, and then press the button in the Beat Mapping lane that says "beats from region".

    * You should then have a tempo map that follows the audio.
  9. EdgarRothermich

    EdgarRothermich Senior member

    It looks like there seems to be some basic misunderstanding of some basic concepts

    Your original sentence "I change the tempo of a piano roll click track that I've created" brings up already a flag. You can't change the tempo of a piano roll. Logic has one Tempo Track (lets not get into Alternatives right now) that applies to the whole sequence and all its tracks. Of course the Tempo Tack could have only one entry (constant tempo) or fluctuate with tons of Tempo nodes.

    Another sentence "I'm not using any SMPTE". I'm afraid to bring you the bad new "Yes you are using SMPTE". You have to understand the three different elements "Bars/Beats" - "Tempo" - "SMPTE"
    Bars/Beats are defining a relative distance of events (notes) on an x-axes (call it staff or timeline) between different note values with no absolute timing information
    Tempo references a unit (beats, miles, km, etc) to time: bbm, Km/h, etc
    SMTPE is a specific format of time, how to count (label) time.

    If you reference a musical piece by just using its Bar/Beat definition (bar 10, beat 3) then you just pointing to a specific location on your score or your sequencer. Only if you apply a tempo information (fixed or variable) then you can reference that location to a point in time (bar 10, beat3 happens at 35s into the piece).

    The Synchronization Projects Settings has a value for Frame Rate. Note that there is no "off" option. Leave it at 30fps or 25fps for European users. The detailed explanation for all those values and its consequences filled many many books and still confuses most of the users who have to deal with it.

    One last note. When you place a Region on the sequencer's timeline you "reference" it to x-axes. There are two unit for that x-axes, either bar/beat or SMTPE. You can even display both together. There are a lot of parameters that have to be considered to make sure that you are doing the right thing or assuming the right thing when you do some actions regarding those timelines.
    * MIDI Regions refer to the bar/beat timeline with the start of the Region and each event in it refers to tit. An Audio Regions uses one anchor point to reference the audio file to the Timeline.
    * Regions are locked to a position (Bar, Beat) not the time. Changing the Tempo will not change the Bar position but change its Time position.
    * When you SMPTE lock (Time Lock) a region, you will reference it now to the time-line and not the Bar/Beat-line. Changing the Tempo will change its Bar/Beat position.
    * MIDI Region and Audio Region will respond differently to Time Lock due to their different reference mechanism (see above)
    * Audio Loops behave different than regular Audio Regions in regards to tempo. Think of it as many many anchor point versus one anchor point.
    * I think we are clear that there is a difference between the built in click track and a recorded click track when you change the tempo around afterwards.

    You touched a very important issue "Timeline". It seems so simple and that's why most users think they understand it (at least it's not like messing around in the Environment). The problem is that it can get very confusing very fast depending on your level of understanding or the lack of it) and what kind of operations you want to do. If you are working on a project with MIDI, Audio, and Loops and have to do beatmapping with some of the regions SMPTE locked and everything has to sync to a movie with 29.97df then you have quite a handful. Of course until you get the new picture edit with some frames added here and there that have to match with your music changes from the director referencing to the previous version. Who says out job is not exciting ...
  10. jabo

    jabo Member

    Wow. Here is the exact project in depth. I am recording the companion CD for a book for cherry lane that has already been written. They provided me with songs, some of which are live. All I need to do is get a general click track (woodblock whatever) that generally matches the tempo of the song in question. However, when I try to do that by using the number value in the transport bar display, it lengthens or shortens the original song to match the number instead of letting me keep changing the tempo number to get as close as I can to the original song tempo. That is my problem in a nutshell. Does anyone have an idea on this that doesn't involve a longwinded discussion on SMPTE time code? Thanks as always.
  11. EdgarRothermich

    EdgarRothermich Senior member

    jabo, so basically you you want someone to tell you "click here and here then there, done" without understanding why. Just a nanny at hand that changes your diapers all the time without going through the "longwinded" process of potty training. Good luck.
  12. jabo

    jabo Member

    You're offended! I apologize. You're obviously an engineer with a great deal of expertise. I'm obviously a guitar player and an educator. Perhaps instead of insulting those of less adept in your particular field, you should think about how you can best teach someone something so they understand. Anyway, no offense meant.
  13. EdgarRothermich

    EdgarRothermich Senior member

    jabo, first of all, apology accepted.

    I was not offended, I was surprised that someone who seeks advise, rejects that advise if it involves too much learning. You say that you are an educator so you must know that in order to teach a specific subject, sometimes it is necessary to lay the foundation first and that might take a moment depending on the complexity.
    I don't think that you can "teach" someone to fly a 747 by telling him what button to press and when without some basics in aviation, physics and some other things.

    I don't know where you get the sense of "insult" in my "longwinded" post about the timeline. I took the time to explain it and if you have a problem with my explanation then tell me, just don't diss it. Your advice is "you should think about how you can best teach someone something so they understand". Let me assure you that I spent quite some time doing exactly that. It seems that you are not be familiar with my Personal Manuals that I publish for free for the last couple of years. (www.DingDingMusic.com/Manuals/.

    Nowadays a typical Logic user has to be a Musician, Composer, Arranger, Engineer, Computer Geek, Publicist, Lawyer and what not. So everybody is most likely "less adept" in one or the other field and relies on help to learn as much as possible. At least that is my attitude, to learn as much as possible to get better in doing what I'm doing.
  14. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Sounds to me like you may have some flex time or follow tempo functions going on.

    Make sure to turn off flex editing, if it is on. And just to be safe, select the audio file in your Arrange Window, and make sure the "follow tempo" checkbox in the region parameters is unchecked. The behavior should be as you expect at that point.
  15. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    I think I know what the issue is...

    First, take all your "songs" and place them on a single track, side by side.

    second, put the song position pointer (the line that moves from left to right as the song progresses) at the start position of song 1.

    third, open the lists group (in the right hand side of your arrange window, should be icons with names "notes, Lists, Media) and select Tempo.

    4) select "create" and you should have a tempo marker. Play with the tempo number until your first song clicks are in time (you need to have the metronome on, the little icon on the bottom right hand side of the arrange window).

    5, Move the song position pointer to the beginning of the second song,

    Follow steps 2 to 4.

    Repeat until you have as many tempo markers as songs. if you did it correctly, you should be able to play your Logic project from start to finish, and the click will match the correct tempo at the start of each song.

    Make sure your "follow tempo" in not checked in the inspector of your audio track, or the song/region your trying to find the tempo on will stretch and shrink as you alter the tempo.

    I hope that is what you are asking for, if not, I'm at a loss to help any more.

    Good Luck,

    FYI The thing you are trying to do with Logic does require some understanding of the basics of Logic and how it works with Tempo. I suggest you look into the chapter in the "Help" menu selection: Logic Pro Help: Logic Pro 9 User Manual: "Working with Tempo and Regions". it will enlighten you quite a bit in regards to what I think you are looking for.
  16. sonnykeyes

    sonnykeyes Senior member

    With all due respect to Edgar, whose explanation was accurate, I believe the communication difficulty here has to lie in the Flex Mode selected. If jabo is using audio files that speed up or slow down as tempo changes are made, then all that needs to be done is to switch Flex Mode off (look in the inspector on the left side of the screen when your audio track is selected) and Logic should behave as expected.

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