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Logic 8 'Correct' key commands for zoom?

Discussion in 'Logic 8' started by tedthetrumpet, Apr 25, 2009.

  1. tedthetrumpet

    tedthetrumpet New Member

    According to the David Nahmani Peachpit book, under the US Standard key command set, the zooming modifier is ctrl; ctrl-up arrow etc. I've got my Logic 8.0.2 set to US Standard, and it is showing the zooming modifier as cmd; cmd-up arrow etc. Which is correct? I'm asking mainly becuase I'm memorising stuff for the Logic 101 exam...
     
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  3. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    The exam is based on the book, so I'd think in those terms. Interestingly, I just loaded in the standard key command set you mentioned and yes, mine show the command key. However, my own set of commands shows the control key. I don't remember switching these...... David's book is based on 8.0, maybe default key commands changed slightly with the sub-releases.

    Some clarification: (you may already be clear on this)

    The key command for the zoom tool is control option. This changes ANY tool in use to the zoom tool. You still have to make a selection to zoom in on. (Not so with zooming out). The control (well - or command, I guess) and up arrow combination is of itself a zoom method, you do not have to make a selection (in fact, you can't make a selection) to define the zoom area.

    The command key by itself brings up the command-click tool. This by default is not set to the zoom tool, rather the marquee tool.

    HTH.
     
  4. tedthetrumpet

    tedthetrumpet New Member

    I had the same idea as you, I think it's probably been changed at some point in one of the updates... the machines at the college I teach at are probably still on an earlier version, I'll check what they have next week.

    It's quite interesting working through the book; I started out using Logic when it was Notator on the Atari, and I'm starting to realise I have some old habits I could do with losing, and some new things still to learn. Discovery for me today was ctrl-z, 'navigation back', basically an undo for 'zoom to fit'.
     
  5. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    I go back to the Atari and Notator days as well. It's a bit of an improvement overall on that set up.

    If you haven't already done so, check out your key commands for zoom by opening up the key command window (option K is the default command to open that) and type in zoom. There are a bunch of key commands to navigate through the zoom settings. Zoom to selection is one of my most commonly used ones.

    David's book is very good (I'm a trainer so I use it regularly). If time and interest allow, the next book in the series by David Dvorin is nice as well. Jay Asher has a book out, Orren Merton does too. If you do videos, both Eli Krantzberg and I have a number of them at Groove3.com. macProvideo has some good ones as well. Other choices out there - just naming a few of them.
     
  6. leytonnz

    leytonnz Senior member

    ted,
    re: ctrl+z

    did you know that ctrl+opt when using zoom will also act as a navigation back path if you click anywhere in the arrange.. eg ctrl +opt select an area to zoom in, the ctrl+option anywhere on an empty bit of the arrange to follow the navigation path back out.. this will follow multiple zoom ins and back..
    good luck with the exam..

    FWIW i have my zooms set the same as pro tools, as i use them both..
    i actually have a number of logic KC set up similar to Tools, because digi are stingy KC bandits..
     
  7. zerobeat

    zerobeat Senior member

    What a ridiculous exam it would be that asks you to memorize key commands. This has absolutely nothing to do with real-world knowledge of anything.

    in the real world you would never need to know how Logic works while not actually in front of Logic.

    A valid exam would therefore ask conceptual questions, and allow you to actually have Logic in front of you.

    So an example of a real world question would be to ask you what the keycommand for something is. And the alert user would then know how to look this up (in the Key Commands window, then do a search). So this question now becomes valid, since it's not making any artificial demands on your memory for arcane knowledge if it was a function you weren't already using constantly (then you'd probably know this keycommand from memory anyway). Rather, the inability to answer the question betrays a more conceptual understanding of Logic (the entire user-definable keycommand structure).

    If you ask any expert Logic user what the keycommand for something is that they don't use constantly, they couldn't answer the question if Logic wasn't in front of them. So what does this tell you about this user's ability to use Logic? Nothing.
     
  8. JoeA

    JoeA New Member

    > According to the David Nahmani Peachpit book, under the US Standard
    > key command set, the zooming modifier is ctrl; ctrl-up arrow etc. I've
    > got my Logic 8.0.2 set to US Standard, and it is showing the zooming
    > modifier as cmd; cmd-up arrow etc. Which is correct? I'm asking
    > mainly becuase I'm memorising stuff for the Logic 101 exam...

    The Standard default Zooming key commands ARE Control-Arrow(s) up through 8.0.1, but were changed in 8.0.2 (as per the update docs) to Command-Arrow(s), due, supposedly, to Apple usurping the Control-combinations for some Finder function in Leopard..

    Cheers,
    Joe
     
  9. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    zerobeat:

    Your post is a little confusing. Are you saying that testing on any key command is ridiculous or just rarely used ones?

    I think it would be unfortunate that a user can't memorize basic commands. How about play, stop, save and undo? These basic ones (and others) are what most real-world Logic users use daily. This is valid working knowledge and will greatly speed work flow, which is what most people look for when they get help with Logic.

    I've worked with hundreds of individuals with Logic and ALL were hungry for key commands to speed up work flow. If you ask any expert Logic user if they think key commands are important, I'd bet most if not all would say absolutely.

    FWIW, the exam doesn't ask obtuse key command questions, only questions based on what is covered in the book. The key commands in the book are ones I use every day. I think most people would - they're very practical commands.

    Anyway, this is going a bit off topic to the OP's question. My apologies to the forum moderators, please feel free to move or delete.
     
  10. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    JoeA:

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  11. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Well, once we're off topic - what the hell :D

    Doug, I unhesitatingly agree as to the usefulness and importance of using and memorizing key commands. But I have to disagree that all users are hungry for key commands to speed up workflow. Okay, I haven't worked with hundreds of Logic users; but certainly dozens. And for the most part I agree with you.

    But there are a subset of Logic users who are not _really_ into the technology the same way most of us around here are. They are "just" musicians looking to get their ideas down in Logic. And they just don't think in terms of key commands. It confuses them rather than helps them. They don't want to clutter their minds up with this additional information, when just grasping a useable (for them) work flow of the tasks they need with mouse commands is challenge enough. In these (admittedly rare) cases I have found that showing them the key commands for the tasks they are doing usually just sails right over their head. It's information overload. They're thinking about the music.

    These are the users that struggle the most with Logic. These are the same users that have trouble understanding signal flow and basic routing with their audio hardware. They find a workflow - that is of course an extremely limited subset of what is possible - and stick to it. And then call "us" when something changes, or doesn't work, or they need to do some new task they haven't committed to their routine workflow.

    If only we could convince them of the usefulness of key commands. But it's like trying to explain to a middle school student how much cooler calculus is then long division is to work out the problems they have been assigned.

    And zerobeat - I hear you about the exam questions. I'm actually just finishing up David's book myself in preparation of taking the certification exam. I agree that examining the users ability to search the key commands to find something is way more conceptually important than examining them on what a specific key command for a specific action is. But I do see the usefulness in terms of re-enforcing a uniform approach to teaching the program. Not that Logic was ever really about that. But it "sort of, kind of" now does seem to be. And truthfully, it's not a completely bad thing. Especially for those users who struggle with the basics!
     
  12. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Hi Eli,

    Actually, the only time I can remember having people not interested in key commands was when I taught DP at a community college - and those few students were daunted by everything, even the Mac (were PC users). But even those students I think could see the value of key commands. And again, I'm talking basic - like start, stop, save and undo. I'm not talking about nudging a region by ticks, for example.

    Getting back to OP's concern about key commands, Apple has set a standard and if you want to be certified by them you need to know a few key commands. It's what a certification means - you've met the standard.

    I'm sure you'll ace the exam BTW. Just make sure you think in the methods shown in the book, not in your own tips and tricks ;)
     
  13. Hm, I have 8.0.2 installed and zooming is still done via CTRL-Arrows.

    - Sascha
     
  14. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Good question as to how Logic updates work. I have 8.0.2 and my commands are control/arrow. Maybe the update didn't mess with existing key commands (makes sense) but changed the default setting. That's what it looks like here, anyway.
     
  15. Ginger

    Ginger Member

    Re. factory/'correct' key command sets: it would have been a lot easier to convert to Apple's own key command set, gradually, if the factory default key commands would show up in the Key Command window next to those I personally have defined over the years.
     
  16. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    My key commands in 8.0.2 also default to the control key with the arrows for zooming. I bet it's with new installs of fresh 8.0.2 versions that the command key is used.
     
  17. JoeA

    JoeA New Member

    > My key commands in 8.0.2 also default to the control key with the arrows for zooming.
    > I bet it's with new installs of fresh 8.0.2 versions that the command key is used..

    Mine too, I assume if you load "US Standard" KCs it'll come up Command-Arrow(s), otherwise I guess it retains the older settings or user customizations..

    Cheers,
    Joe
     
  18. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    To clarify on my earlier post, I did load the default set from the key command window for the US standard keyboard and it did switch my commands for zoom to command/arrow. I reinstalled my saved commands and back to control/arrow. So I think Eli's comment of a fresh install of 8.0.2 is valid as to why some have that key set.
     
  19. zerobeat

    zerobeat Senior member

    Testing one's memory of keycommands in a vacuum is ridiculous. In other words, asking a question about Logic but preventing the student from actually having Logic in front of them to investigate the answer is only a measure of somebody's memory, not a measure of conceptual understanding.

    But it sure is easy for the teacher to mark an exam when all the student is asked to do is regurgitate rote facts.
     
  20. Personally, I think that those tests are rather ridiculous when it comes to keycommands.
    I mean, it's about a host offering a wide selection of customizeable keycommands - and the host makers are even encouraging you to make full use of these options. Now, where's any sense in learning the default keycommands? IMO that's just making no sense at all.
    The only thing making sense would be to ask folks about certain functionalities. I.e., there's some functionality such as "zoom to fit" or so. No need to know about the default keycommand at all, but you probably need to know that this very function is there.

    - Sascha
     
  21. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Wow - tough crowd here when it comes to memorizing key commands.

    Have either of you (Sascha or zerobeat) seen the test that Apple gives? Do either of you have a background as an educator? I think if you could answer yes to both you might have a little gentler opinion of testing on key commands.

    There aren't many questions on key commands, and the ones that are there are ones that are generally used daily by anyone who is at least an advanced beginner on Logic. To me the purpose of the training (and ensuing exam) is to teach users how to become more knowledgeable and more proficient in using the program. And regarding having them learn the default key commands, most beginners are fine with that as they haven't had experience setting up personal preferences yet. Not unlike when I teach guitar and someone wants to learn my voicing on the chord I'm playing. There might be 16 ways to finger the chord (or variation of such), as they don't know any of them, they're happy to learn mine.

    Searching for the zoom tool to zoom in on a section is not efficient, nor is it professional. All people that come to these training want to be better at Logic. They all appreciate better work flow techniques and they want key commands. Again, it's Apple's exam, their standard, their prerogative.

    Even when I teach private individuals, my line is "don't mouse around". I strongly encourage them to learn key commands that will speed up the work flow. I give them simple tips on how to learn and use them.

    When I teach guitar I ask the student to memorize chords and scales. It's not enough to know that one can figure out a Gb major scale if the exam (read gig) requires them to be proficient and be able to play it from memory.

    So I guess I see a difference between theoretical knowledge and the ability to do. The theory doesn't get you through the job. You have to be able to execute as well. Not to say that working on Logic at home is the same as working on it for a client, or the same as playing guitar on a gig. Working with a client and stopping to look up something is always less than ideal. Same with stopping to find your chord book to figure out a G7#9 voicing on a gig.

    The Apple training isn't for everyone. But for anyone who wants to broaden their skill set, learn better work flow and become more proficient (yes, including memorizing a few key commands) it is a good training. Most who come to this training are serious musicians interested in all the above - and they thank me at the end of the training for what they've learned.

    OK - I owe somebody a penny - I think I gave .03 worth of rubbish....
     

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