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Logic 9 Environment for octave up/down S1/2 toggle?

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by CSeye, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    On the older (but still excellent) Roland GI-20 MIDI guitar converter, one could assign the S1/S2 switch (on the GK pickup but also on piezo-equipped guitars that offer a toggle switch e.g. Godin, Brian Moore..) to octave up/octave down.

    This functionality is an incredible convenience when sequencing MIDI tracks whether using external hardware modules or software instruments.

    The new GR-55 is designed with tons of (internal) tones with all kinds of tweakable parameters, none of which are designed to influence "the outside world".

    Is it possible to set up an Environment octave up/down toggle that can "learn" the S1/S2 toggle switch on my Godin LGX-SA? And be available track by track?

    Of course I can use the mouse to click on Transpose in the Inspector, but it's so much nicer to simply flick the switch where my hand is already available.

    If not, how about some inexpensive foot controller?
     
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  3. Orren Merton

    Orren Merton Logic Samurai / Administrator Staff Member

    Hi CSeye,

    I also just got a Roland GR-55, and it's replacing my old Roland GI-20 (the GR-55 has faster/more accurate MIDI conversion, BTW).

    I've not tried to do what you want to do, so I'm sort of "thinking aloud" in this post. But it seems to me that you *might* do it with a Cable Switcher (Fader object) and a Transformer object. In other words, you would cable a Transformer object to One of the split points of your Cable Switcher fader.

    I'm not familiar with the S1/S2 buttons—my custom guitars with 13-pin systems don't have the buttons, so I'm not sure what message they send. But I'm guessing it's got to be a MIDI message of some kind—you might be able to see it in the Transport bar, or perhaps using a MIDI Monitor object in the Environment.

    What you would do then is use that MIDI message as the "split point" in your Cable Switcher Fader, so that when Logic receives that message, it will direct all the notes to the Transformer object. The transformer object will be set to transpose all the notes by an octave.

    As I said, I haven't tried this, nor do I have S1 and S2 buttons on my MIDI guitars to test it myself. But give it a try, and if there's something I missed in there, hopefully the suggestions I have will get you close.

    And it wouldn't surprise me if a real environmental guru jumps in with a better idea, but this should get you started.

    Hope that helps!
    Orren
     
  4. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Hi CSeye,

    I'll try to do my best to assist you. I do not own your equipment so during custom building the Enviro tool you want I may ask you some questions.

    I can program a small complex Macro tool with extra features but I need to know what messages send your S1/S2. If these messages are Sysex ones they will not be "full" registered in the Environment monitors or in the Transport. Could you tweak the S1/S2 (the messages you want to toggle the Environment transition tool) and record these messages on a Logic midi track. Please provide that midi region as a Logic song or SMF here or send me via Email.
    Regards,

    BTW. Orren Merton I see your idea and it is quite understandable - thanks for posting it. The Cable Switcher idea may cause sustain/hanging notes if you have held notes ON and toggle the switcher - i.e the note OFF messages of the held notes will hang the previous octave, hope see what I mean ?
    A.G
     
  5. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Hi Orren,

    Thank you for responding. I'll give your suggestion a work out in a couple of days when things slow down. Hah! :roll eyes: The RMC OPT-1 Subsonic filter is in a box on my desk waiting to be installed...

    I'm guessing that you may have an S1/S2 toggle switch on your guitar. It's generally set up to toggle between presets but it can be assigned to other functions. Check out the image. On GK pickups, they are indeed buttons that function as described above.

    My S1/S2 changes GR-55 presets like a champ. However all of the tone octave parameters are for internal sounds. I even tried setting up a preset with the alternative tuning for the normal and COSM guitar output. Works great:thmbup: But has no bearing on external MIDI pitch.

    Best regards,

    wv
     

    Attached Files:

  6. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Hi Tangra,

    Many thanks for checking in. I'll have some time later today to see what is transmitted from this switch and I'll definitely send it to you.

    Best regards,

    wv
     
  7. Orren Merton

    Orren Merton Logic Samurai / Administrator Staff Member

    Hi CSeye,

    Yeah, I need to get one of those myself!

    Actually, I know I don't have them. :) I know exactly what they are, where they generally go, and what they do. My 13-pin guitars were custom built by Koll Guitars to my specifications, and I specifically asked for the S1/S2 buttons not to be installed.

    I previously owned one Fernandes guitar that I had an RMC system including S1/S2 button installed, and another Fernandes guitar I had a GK-2 internal system installed, also with S1/S2 button. I found I never used them.

    Sounds like you get great use out of them though! :thmbup:

    Orren
     
  8. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Hi Orren,

    Look for a thread over at the GR-55 forum in a week or so that will contain screenshots of Logic's Piano Roll editor before and after installation of the OPT-1 filter.

    Forgive me. :redface: I'm constantly using my S1/S2 that I was puzzled by the absence of one on your guitar :confused:

    If I had the budget to have a custom-made guitar, I'd have more toggle switches installed for preset switching, octave shifts; maybe some sort of mini touch pad for key switching, a mod wheel, a pitch wheel etc.

    Then again, maybe I need to search for a foot controller where much of the about could be assigned. But my hand prefers local control.

    wv
     
  9. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Hello Tangra,

    I seem to have come up empty handed.

    The MIDI monitor on the Logic Transport, and Monitor objects do not indicate any activity when I toggle the S1/S2.

    I tried to record into the Snoize Sys Ex Librarian. The GI-20 was recognized by no data was recorded when toggling the S1/S2 switch.
     
  10. Orren Merton

    Orren Merton Logic Samurai / Administrator Staff Member

    Which GR-55 forum? The one at vguitarforums.com?

    No need for forgiveness! I'm an odd duck. :)

    Take care
    Orren
     
  11. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Hi CSeye,

    I see. To check it I got the GI-20 manual (p.15) and found out that S1/S2 receive only CC82 & 83 and can not transmit midi data - here is the note:
    * These Control Change messages are not transmitted externally
    to other devices.


    So it seems S1/2 can control the internal sounds only! You can get any foot switch and I'll do my best to assist to build any Enviro schemes you want.
    Another workaround is to use Keyswitching. I.e you play some special midi notes (two very high ones you do not use in your regular play for example) so I can convert them into keyswitchers to control the midi transposition. Or even one note will do (first time you play that note it toggles the octave Up, second time you play the note it toggles Down and so on). Just let me know if you like that scenario?
    Regards,

    A.g
     
  12. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Hi Tangra,

    I revisited the manual and yes you are right. But the GI-20 has parameters to allow one to assign octave up/down to the S1/S2. This allows me to switch tracks, and be in the correct register. At one point I spent time setting up staff styles per track for orchestral instruments and used the S1/2 toggle rather than selecting octaves in the Inspector. So I'm all set with the GI-20.

    The real issue is that the new GR-55, while a good MIDI controller for software instruments doesn't have have parameters that affect external sound sources.

    Clearly, the S1/2 does not transmit anything per Snoize MIDI Monitor (and Logic's Monitors). I even tried using Logic's Learn controller window to see if the S1/2 would be acknowledged. Nope!

    Foot controllers are very pricey given my intended use. So at this point, the most sensible solution for me is to just use Logic templates with octave set as needed in the Inspector.

    I do have several templates that I developed over a period of months, but I don't have a set way of working. Rather I start off with the "instrument" that is inspiring me at the moment, then add additional tracks as needed.

    Thank you for your willingness to be a problem solver, but it's not worth the time and $$$ at this point.

    I do have other Environment questions that will get posted soon.;)

    Best regards,

    wv
     
  13. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Reading that and your previous details I see that the S1/S2 behave as the regular "transpose" keyboard buttons which do the trick internally and do not sent any midi CC or Sys transpose messages (i.e they just transpose the Note pitches internally and transmit the transposed notes to the external device etc).

    Somehow this gives me the idea that I can develop a small environment which will follow the Octave Number switching and create an artificial CC# message for a given Octave number etc. I.e when you use the S1/S2 to change the octave a real CC message is not send, but when you start to play the environment tool will register your new octave# and will generate a custom CC# message.

    Regarding your future Environment questions you are welcome! :thmbup:
    Regards,

    A.G
     
  14. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Tangra,

    :thmbup:
     
  15. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Yes.

    Look for it mid to late next week.

    Best,

    wv
     
  16. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Hi Owen,
    Check this out: http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.msg30880#msg30880
     

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