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Logic 9 Has Sample Editor destroyed my voc track?

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by Made To Feel, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. Made To Feel

    Made To Feel New Member

    I have a song I've been working on a long time with many versions saved.
    Now I'm doing a radio edit & decided I'd reverse the offending words.

    I figured the way to do this was in Sample Editor (which I'm not too familiar with) so I went into the vocal track, cut out the word, and reversed the new region in Sample Editor. I didn't like the results, so I used undo, which sealed up the region again, but now the word is still reversed!

    And worse yet, it's reversed in every previous version. There's not even one I can go back to!

    Little help? Panic is slowly setting in.
  3. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Unfortunately, you may be SOL. Edits performed in the sample editor are destructive edits. Meaning that the edits permanently change the file on the disc. They are not just playback parameters that are being edited like when you are doing region based editing in the Arrange window.

    The way to revert back to the previous original state is to replace your altered audio file with a fresh unaltered version from a backup. And I'm nto talking about one of the Logic generated project file backups. I'm talking about from an alternate hard drive that you hopefully backed your whole project up onto before making any destructive edits. If you haven't done that, all I can say is try to see the silver lining - you'll NEVER EVER make this mistake again! :D
  4. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Did you make a backup of your song file anywhere? If you haven't, you SOL Like Eli said. If you made a backup (as easy as dragging your file to another drive at the end of the day.. ALWAYS to be done), you might be ok if you haven't backed it up since you did the reverse thing.

    Logic also asks if you want to make a backup before doing something destructive... did you say yes? If so, there is a backup file somewhere you can use.

    Sorry to hear this one, it's gotten me in the past, and then I actually took some time to read as much of the manual as my brain could grasp. David Nahmini has some great Logic books at Peachpit, and Eli has some great Logic video tutorials at Groove 3, as well as Mac Pro Video. Lots of places to spend a few $$$ and get things like this figured out.

    Finally, you could make a copy of the track and reverse your reversed words...
  5. Pete Thomas

    Pete Thomas Administrator Staff Member

    This should solve the problem completely.

    I don't need to reply because that was the perfect advice, I just thought I should emphasise never ever ever do any important work without making backups.

    Don't rely on undo, after a few destructive sample edits, even if undo is working correctly, I always seem to get in a pickle.

    Before any destructive edits I make a new audiofile from the region (there is a key command for that) otherwise yes, the edit affects every region with that one audioflie.

    Also I have two external drives, one with a daily scheduled Super Duper backup and the other using Time machine (which is great for getting back to earlier versions). I think most people have been caught out by not backing up.

    Luckily you are not stuffed, as George mentioned, just reverse the reversed words.
  6. Pete Thomas

    Pete Thomas Administrator Staff Member

    One more thing:

    Nothing is "saved" unless it's also backed up.
  7. Made To Feel

    Made To Feel New Member

    First of all, yes: I do have a backup.
    Secondly, however: WHAT THE F*CK is the use of destructive edits anyway?? I don't see it as anything but a liability.
    And finally: how am I to reverse things non-destructively?

    The problem with this is that the reversed section is now sealed into a region and I can't tell where it begins or ends. I'd have to go in and do guesswork (and apparently destructive guesswork).
  8. Pete Thomas

    Pete Thomas Administrator Staff Member

    Surely you would just listen for the word you reversed, you said it's just one word.

    However as you have a backup, then all is fine. Just copy the audio file from your backup into your project.

    Your post implied you didn't have a backup (ie you mentioned "panic").
  9. Made To Feel

    Made To Feel New Member

    What I meant is: yes, thank you for reminding me, I do in fact have a backup, whew.

    Sadly, I cut in the middle of the word to approximate something like "fcuk". I would have to listen through and grab from the exact point where it begins to change to the exact point it changes back. Oh, and never mind any second chances because if I "fcuk" it up, no do-overs! WTF.

    Questions remain: what use is destructive editing? Seems a huge liability in a professional product. Also, how do I non-destructively reverse regions?
  10. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    First of all, let's try changing the language we use. Instead of referring to it as destructive editing; let's call it constructive editing. Because that is really what it is. There are lots of situations that merit permanently altering a file.

    Let's say you are editing a master final mix and you want to cut away silence at the end or beginning of the file. Let's say you want to fade in or fade out. Let's say it is something recorded in the field at low volume and you want to increase the gain of the file globally. Let's say you want to cut out a section of a song from the final stereo mix file. Etc etc. Those are just a few examples.

    You can't. The way to do it though is like this: cut out the section you want to reverse so it is a unique region. Select the region, then from under the Audio menu in the Arrange Window, choose "convert regions to new audio files". Now your region will be it's own unique audio file containing that one word. You can process away to your hearts content. If you want to revert, simply drag the region boundary back from the original longer audio file. It will still be intact since this wasn't the file you were processing constructively.

    Attached Files:

  11. Made To Feel

    Made To Feel New Member

    There are no situations however, when I can think of a non-undo-able function being beneficial. Isn't that one of the great things about digital audio? I remain unconvinced.

    Exactly. I see that as an surprisingly huge gap in Logic's capability. I appreciate the workaround but it seems needlessly byzantine for a DAW in the 21st century.
  12. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Lets be clear: if you have a backup then you should have a copy of the complete, untouched file. Replacing that with the altered one will return the project to the same point it was before you did this.

    2) I suggest next time you do this use this method: Cut the work out in the arrange window, make the offending word a new audio file (there is a key command to do this), then edit the new file. this way you are never altering the original track, only the copy you just made, so now you can go into the sample editor with the copy and do what you want.

    3) Logic works fine, it's the end user's lack of understanding of how things work that are the issue. Sure, Logic has it's faults, but if the backup option had been selected before you started editing, this would have been an issue. You would have also known that the sample editor was going to alter the audio file. Thats there the "RTFM" comes from ;-)

    I can guarantee you will not be making that mistake again, much like I and many others before you have done.
  13. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Then you need to re-evaluate your thinking. I'm not trying to be facetious; I'm serious.

    Yes, it is one of the great things about digital audio. Another one of the great things about digital audio is that you can make permanent changes.

    It's not a gap; and creating a new audio file from an edited region is not a workaround. It's simply the way Logic works.
  14. Ginger

    Ginger Member

    Logic has it's own Undo-solution for the sample editor. This is why you'll see that the local Undo menu in the Sample Editor shows things you assume you couldn't Undo - while the standard Undo option in the main Edit menu often shows something else.

    Here are some Logic settings which may be interesting for Undoing so called destructive edits:

    • “Clear Undo History when quitting” checkbox: Select this option to automatically delete the Undo History for all edited audio files, when you close Logic Pro.
    In other words: If this is not enabled, the Undo History will not be deleted from Logic's history. If you check your project folder, you may see an Undo folder with a long Undo history of Sample Editor edits.

    • Number of Undo Steps field: Lets you determine the maximum number of undo steps that are retained.

    You can set this to 9999 (!) steps, and there's even a setting which lets you decide if changing the selection in the Sample Editor shall be stored in the Sample Editor's local Undo history.

    Logic also has a rather powerful, "secret" way of Undoing only one of the things you did a while ago (i. not the last edit only): Open the Undo list, and Command click on the isolated Undo step you want to have executed (and read the warning which coms up). The bad news is that this option is only available in the Undo list found in the Arrange windows local Edit menu, so you can't use this solution for the sample editor. Still: If you open a version of the project, and go back as many undo steps as you can in the Sample Editor's local Undo menu, you may be able to Undo the reverse, but also just Undo the selection you made - so you can see which selection you have been reversing.

    At any rate - if you look in the sample editor, as opposed to just listen, you may actually see exactly where you have reversed a sample. But if you have set Logic to save your Sample Editor Undo history, and have the number if Undo's set high enough, you may be able to Undo the reverse process. Just look at the right Undo option.

    A quick way to make a Undoable reverse in the future, would be to just make a separate region out of the area you want to reverse. Just Marquee select the area you want to edit, and click on it - this will isolate that region. You can us the left and right arrows to fine tune your selection in Arrange (with or without Shift) - this will extend or reduce the selections length in either direction based on the file's transients. If you later want to undo that reversal, just double-click on the same region, and choose reverse again - this will work eve if you haven't made a new audio file out of that reversed word.

    ETA: I haven't checked this, but maybe it's worth trying to go back to an earlier saved version and check the local Undo options you have in the Sample Editor in these version. If the Undo steps are stored on a per-saved-version basis, this could help you out even if Undoing max. number of steps in the last saved version will solve your problem.

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