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Ivory 2-->Lgc 9.1.7-->Wvbrnr-->CD

Discussion in 'Legacy Logic Studio Applications' started by sunhunter9, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. sunhunter9

    sunhunter9 Member

    Okay, so I'm using 64 bit Logic to record Ivory II Italian Grand as a midi track. Okay, so if I just bounce, with default settings, I suppose that Ivory is converted to 24 bit aiff and then on to 16 bit without dithering. Okay, yeah, I'm just trying to figure this out, bit by bit, as it were. So, to recap: I played a tune, bounced, imported to Waveburner 1.6x then went to 16 bit 44 whatever for a CD. I noticed my tracks sounded a tiny bit bad, which they were actually 8 bits bad, because Logic send a file with rounding errors on to Waveburner because I accidentally had it set to 16 bit no dithering. Okay, so I should have checked the 24 bit box, no dithering to make the Ivory tracks retain the best sound, without truncation or dithering at that point. So, okay, I get it now if that is what is happening with Ivory 2. I mean, the fact that it's now 64 bit and I'm using Logic 64 bit refers to data, not audio, yah? Or no? Yep, pretty sure that 24 bit AUDIO (aiff.) is what I want to export to Waveburner for mastering. Then, (I have to re-record the whole album i.e. bounce 24 bit no dithering) after doing everything I want to do with the whole album in Waveburner, burn my CD with it set to dither going down to 16 bit. Okay, so that's what I'm going to do then, re-record everything. Maybe I should bounce in place? Do you? Am I, er, on the right track? Just a nod or something, eh fellers.....Maybe this is partly an Ivory 2 question, maybe Waveburner....a lot happens when one hits that "bounce" button.
     
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  3. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    First, I would suggest you try this: send your Ivory output to your audio outputs 3/4 from your Traveller interface, and then record them back into new tracks. Logic's bounce process can loose a huge amount of detail and stereo information from a delicate part.

    Record it at 24 bits.

    Now you have a better master than you had before.

    Now try this: first, add your master to Waveburner, and don't dither, and prep a disc image. this file will be a 16 bit SD 2 file if waveburner still works the way it used too.

    Now do the exact same thing, but this time add dither to your master.

    You should now have 2 files, one dithered, the other not.

    Open a new Logic session, and drop your 2 new files into it, making 2 tracks.Now just do an a/b comparison to hear which is a better representation of what you want.

    I have used dither and simple truncation on a number of different projects over the years, and in my experience it really depends on the project regarding how dither (or the "sound" of dither) effects it. And if one wants to be sure of the results, doing it like this seems to be the only way to verify things.

    In my experience the actual recording of the audio out of Logic and recording it into new tracks makes the most significant difference. I think the straight bounce function in Logic is terrible. in fact, I use RME products because of the loopback function, and the fact that I can digitally do this, but really anyone with a digital I/O can do the same with a bit of thought as to how to achieve this step.

    So, that would be my process or suggestion of a series of steps.

    Hope all is well BTW Donovan.
     
  4. sunhunter9

    sunhunter9 Member

    Okay, I've never done this b4. This is a solo piano piece FWIW, just one stereo track. I did get an recording of the Ivory 2 on a new track as you suggested..I set Bus 1 on the Ivory channel at zero and routed that to a new audio track (stereo). With all other faders (master, stereo output, the Ivory channel and an aux 1 channel all set to zero, I had to go -5.8 on the new, recording audio track to keep the same level I had. So, I don't know how elegant this method is, but it seems to have rendered what I was after. The only FX are already set on the Ivory 2 interface. So, I can see how this could be a better recording of Ivory to export to Waveburner. There, I plan only to add a tad of verb just before dithering to 16 bit.

    Next, I think I can make an SD II file, 16 bit with no dithering, for comparison. This brings up another question though. Wouldn't I be introducing the .aif v SDII file variance into the competition? If I am burning my own Redbook master, do I need to go SDII. Looks like I'll fall behind another day or two, but it is SO WORTH IT to gain these insights from people like George. Wish I had the dough to entice you up here but we moved recently ( same hood ) and, well, nuff said. No matter the outcome, I'm just glad to know how to render Ivory this way. My results with "bounce in place" were sketchy as it stopped the process when the level dropped very low, even though the level comes back with an automated wave of sound returning.
     
  5. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    AIF and SD32 are file holders, no difference in data quality, so don't waste your time.

    When you make your disc image in WB IT makes the SD 2 file with markers for your redbook CD (at least that is how it used to work).

    I hope that clarifies why the SD 2 file is involved, and why it doesn't really make any difference wether it's aif, sd II, or wav, at least for this kind of thing.
     
  6. sunhunter9

    sunhunter9 Member

    Yep, thanks. The audio recording DOES sound a tad better than the bounce, offline even. Odd, it would seem that the offline aspect would allow the best quality. I'm trying to master an album of jazz piano standards I played, and I thought it would be "manageable." That was already 2 headaches ago.

    Is it okay to send the Ivory midi track to a stereo aux and then on to new audio tracks? It seems to work, but I've never been able to grok this stuff like I could when I had a patch bay I built myself. Is there a more direct way to record the audio output of Ivory2? I mean, it don't got no outputs on the box...
     
  7. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Yea, Logic's bounce, while fast, collapses the depth of your mix, quite a bit actually.

    The audio instrument in Logic is what determines the sound field, you select the type when you add the instrument itself. the midi data is just a data trigger for the instrument, it has no audio data, simple data that tells the audio instrument what to do: note start, pitch, when to release, and any CC info you add (like a soft pedal for example).

    Using the audio track out to a bus then using the bus as input is the only way you can do it other than using a physical cable (like a patchbay).
     
  8. sunhunter9

    sunhunter9 Member

    Since it was almost exclusively a solo piano record with 11 tunes, it was easy enough to re-record the whole album as 24 bit and importing it into Waveburner like that without a bounce. So the only bounce was just before it went to 16bit (dithered) for the master CD. It definitely sounds better than any other method I tried. So, great tip, GL3. I don't know why Apple would give us a different sound. I mean, an offline bounce has all day to get it right......I have a companion disc that goes with this project which contains some ensembles. Some, if not most 3rd party plugs off configurable outputs, so they can be tracked as audio, using different virtual mics and whatnot. So, while it is not so fast, the sound result does indeed seem worth it. Now I have another entire disc to re-record. I'll have to look into this RME hardware if it speeds this up. The other problem I'm having with Waverburner is how to absolutely insure that a copy of each recording track stays available to it. I can't find a box to tick like "save assets with Waveburner piece." If something gets disconnected, I am then faced with looking at the hidoues mess of files and songs that are rampant and chaotic on my disc. I hate to move or clean up anything as this seems to break connections. Ah, but thats another story....
     
  9. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Just bounce your project. it will make a single image file Waveburner can then open and make new CD's with anytime. This is not like a Logic save as command or making a duplicate folder with all the media, it is a single image that represents your final CD image.
     
  10. sunhunter9

    sunhunter9 Member

    Oh yes, I see the menu option, very handy! What a relief to know that data will just be there. My piano solo record sounds more like it did straight out of Ivory 2 now that I've just tracked it in 24 bit. The second disc will contain a trio piece, and I could take the same approach-sending everything to a single stereo track-just like in magnetic times. But does cranking up the send knob (bus 1) send over a scaled version of the FX one has instantiated in the track? I'm trying to hear this on the bass, and it gets a little complicated for me when I'm trying to compress the bass a little. I had no idea the "bounce" function in Logic was such a "lossy" procedure, but isolating on the Ivory 2 sound, it seems to be so. It makes no sense to me why they would do that on an offline bounce. But this way in WB of saving my masters is great, thanks much George.
     
  11. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Very happy to help Donovan,
     
  12. JuanTahnahmahrah

    JuanTahnahmahrah Senior member

    I burn CDs from MIDI recordings using Logic's included Steinway VI, and wonder if I understand the thread correctly:

    1) Does this have something to do with Ivory usurping so much CPU power? Or is it universally true for all VIs?

    2) Logic's offline bounce degrades VIs? Or is Logic's online bounce also inferior to recording a new audio file from the VI triggered by MIDI?

    A beef from some Protools users is there is no "offline" bounce, so whenever an update/edit/correction is necessary, and the piece is lengthy, an online bounce can gobble up a project's completion time.

    With a MIDI file playing back a VI, is the implication that the end result will improve if recording to an additional, fresh, 24 bit stereo track, as opposed to any bounce at all? ...and then import that wave/aiff file into Waveburner for CD burning, and add dither within Waveburner?

    Skip the bounce entirely, or just avoid ever using Logic's offline bounce function?

    Seems like sending the VIs output directly into a mastering program with full 32 bit recording and 64 bit float mixing/SRC (like Sound Forge or Wavelab) would be the logical evolution of this dilemma.
     
  13. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    2.

    Logic's internal "bounce" function is a poor way to get a good stereo mix from Logic.

    As for 1, that is a whole other issue. Plug-ins developers like the ones who make Ivory and BFD that use up almost GB of ram or more on a single instance should have to go back to developer school and be taught how to either make a better streaming engine, or develop a program that is even half as efficient as their current versions are. It shows a complete lack of concern for how their products effect the people who buy it, and especially those who love it and talk it up.

    But like I said, that is a who;e other issue than the fact that Logic's bounce function sucks ;-)
     

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