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Logic 9 Logic with Video - frame sync issue?

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by jdk90026, Jun 25, 2012.

  1. jdk90026

    jdk90026 New Member

    Hi -
    Have a project with video, correct frame rate in settings, etc. movie lines up at 01:00:00:0/0, in both logic transport and BITC.

    the problem - advancing one frame in logic goes to 01:00:00:1/0, but BITC in movie still reads 01:00:00:0/0. from there both advance by one frame, but video reads one frame late. Is there a fix for this?

    Also - anyone know how to move audio to a specific time code spot, other than nudging? Is there a way to type in a spot and place or move audio to it?

    Thanks,

    JDK
     
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  3. Atlas

    Atlas Senior member

    [/QUOTE]
    Have you tried using the smpte offset?

    Have you tried moving the region from the Event List editor?
    (providing that you have set it to display the position in smpte format and adjusted the audio region anchor correctly)
     
  4. jdk90026

    jdk90026 New Member

    SMPTE Offset

    Thanks - the Event list suggestion helps- a few more steps than pro tools, but that's fine if it works, so thanks for that.

    SMPTE Offset however - no matter what I change it too, seems nothing appears different in the timecode display. Tried setting it to 59:59:23 and 01:00:00:01 - not sure which direction the offset works, but either way nothing happens.

    Anyway - the video displays correctly at 0- synched with TC display in Logic. AND it stays exactly in sync as you advance by frame - just 1 frame late. It is as though the FIRST frame takes 2 frames to 'catch' or something...

    Anyone?

    Thanks
     
  5. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Use the Go To Position command. The default key command assignment is the / key. When you call it up, the Position field (in bars and beats) will likely be highlighted by default. Just hit the tab key once to move the selection to the As SMPTE filed, type in your time code position (like in Pro Tools), and hit Return or Enter.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. jdk90026

    jdk90026 New Member

    thanks eli

    that is also helpful.

    fwiw - i do search the manual, but logic tends to have idiosyncratic naming of features, so things don't always turn up - if you have suggestions for good sources of advanced intermediate crash course, lemme know, getting up to speed with pro tools-learned skills mid project is invigorating to say the least.
     
  7. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Control click on any SMPTE display and select SMPTE offset view. Not very intuitive, I know.
     
  8. Atlas

    Atlas Senior member

    Groove3.com video tutorials are highly recommendable!
    :thmbup:
     
  9. roy_mattie

    roy_mattie New Member

    Have you confirmed that the video you have has the correct BITC?

    You can open the video in QT Pro 7, Command I to open the Inspector, and move to different spots in the timeline to see if the timecode corresponds with the BITC. This should at least verify that the BITC is exactly what it's supposed to be.

    As for dropping audio to a specific TC spot... Here's what I do, and I've assigned key commands for these:

    1) 'F' for Event Float, which once you select the audio file in question, allows you to manually type in the TC mark which will snap the audio file to the spot. OR....

    2) Open the Goto... window (which I've assigned to number 8... which allows you to hit 8, then the bar number / TC spot and hit enter all from the numeric keypad).... and select the audio / MIDI regions that you want to move, and use Pickup Clock (move event to playhead position) which I've assigned to the symbol to the left of the number 1 button.

    Hope that helps!
     
  10. jdk90026

    jdk90026 New Member

    Shuttling still an issue

    Thanks for the suggestions - I still can't rely on Logic for frame accuracy, so I'm on hold for using it for scoring, but those are all great tips.

    Anyone else see this issue? Confirmed time code in QT (though QT does not display frames in the inspector, but 100ths of a second). in QT, stepping frame by frame with arrows at least is consistent with the BITC in the movie.

    In Logic, the first frame of any movie I use reads 0:00:00:00 in Logic timeline and BITC. stepping forward 1 frame moves the cursor to 0:00:00:01, but the BITC still reads 0:00:00:00. From there, they move in sync, frame by frame, but the Logic TC reads one frame ahead of BITC.

    Not interested in conforming audio outside of Logic - I'd stick with the other DAW if that's my only option.

    Anybody?
     
  11. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Whether you find Logic accurate enough for film is your decision so obviously please do what best works for you.

    Regarding the offset of one frame - it's probably less than that. To prove it, enable bits in your SMPTE displays (Preferences>Display>General>Display SMPTE. I've discovered if I've set my frame rate right, Logic seems never more than one frame off, and with bits displayed, it's actually less.

    What I do is go to the end of the movie by selecting the audio region from the movie (I prefer to have the audio on its own track rather than hear it from the QT player) and use the command "go to selection end". It takes me to the end, I verify frame display. It's always on, sometimes within a frame. And as mentioned, with bits displayed, it's less than a frame. I've never found this one frame error (when you have it) to be throughout the whole project - navigate to various areas and see how BITC lines up with Logic's display.

    Again, this may not be precise enough for you - and I don't know how DP and PT (for example) show SMPTE. The potential problem with all of them is there is no master time keeper to lock to, such we all used back when the video was striped with audio SMPTE and everyone had interfaces for that. To my understanding these programs have to calculate frame rate and position as no master is generating it, there could be small errors in the process.

    Alternately, you could offset Logic's SMPTE display by one frame or just ignore the difference and use the BITC as the master. Your spotting will be faithful to the film.The only problem could come with exporting audio that is SMPTE time stamped.
     
  12. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Oh - feel free to send my your video if you want - I'd test it here and see how it behaves. Contact me off list for that.
     
  13. jdk90026

    jdk90026 New Member

    SMPTE display in bits

    Thanks Doug -

    With bits enabled, the first frame advances (in logic) to .79, correspondingly no change is shown in BITC, then everything follows as I described before. Guess that may mean I just have to print as is and shift all music back a frame or .21 frames in the final mix. Doable, but can't be right - I'll have to do some experiments when I'm off deadline.

    (BTW - I still intend to send you thoughts about that helpful stuff you emailed me - just finishing a couple of shows first...)
     
  14. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Actually, there are 80 bits (or sub-frames) per frame, so you're off by one bit or .01 frames, at least at the first frame (assuming the Logic display info is correct).

    So at frame two BITC reads 00.00.00.01 and Logic display shows 00.00.00.02 and is consistently ahead one frame throughout - bit display is reading 00?

    For a good read on this display issue, go to this thread:

    http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62849&start=20
     
  15. jdk90026

    jdk90026 New Member

    SMPTE display in bits

    Thanks - that's helpful. That link leads me to think that this is less of a problem in 24, 25 or 30 frame - 23.976, 29.97 or drop frame rates will make problems with that bit display.

    Mine is not 1 bit off, but 79, or almost exactly a frame-

    BITC Logic
    01:00:00:00 01:00:00:00
    01:00:00:00 01:00:00:00.79
    01:00:00:01 01:00:00:01.79
    01:00:00:02 01:00:00:02.79
    01:00:00:03 01:00:00:03.79
    etc

    so just shy of 1 frame off - There must be a way - too many reputable composers using Logic to have it not work! With bits enabled, anywhere I drop the playhead will land anywhere in a frame - .26, .42, etc. How can you use this to set beats/measures to start at the exact front edge of a frame? 1 frame may not seem like much, but it's 40 ms, easily enough for hit points to look off.

    I see advice in that thread suggesting using regions snapped to frames instead of the playhead, but not sure how you would go about establishing the beginning of your region, bar, beat, etc to correspond with the front edge of a frame if the playhead can't snap to it.

    Thanks!

    J
     
  16. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    I've never run across your problem. I just went back to a film I did a while ago and I'm within one bit of the BITC throughout. Typically Logic wants to display .79 of the previous frame rather than the start of the current BITC frame.

    You'll need to decide what you want to trust - Logic's display or the BITC (or both).

    You can navigate to a specific location (drag on bits in display to line up under a frame), set a marker (without rounding). In the future, navigate to that marker to move your playhead there. If desired, snap items to playhead (pickup clock).


    Just out of curiosity, did you try setting this film up in another Logic project to see how it behaves? Assuming frame rate was correct, it's possible you had some corruption.
     
  17. jdk90026

    jdk90026 New Member

    SMPTE vs BITC

    Yeah - I've used multiple Logic sessions to try this. One thing I noticed is with auto-detect frame rate selected in Sync prefs, Logic always misreads the QT as 29.97 df, when it is actually 23.976 non drop.

    I set it to the correct frame rate and put an audio 2pop at the top, and at 4 locations across the 1st minute, noting the BITC and SMPTE positions from QT and Logic respectively - bounced out that audio and dropped it in a pro tools session with the video - there all but the 1st 2pop was off, and all late by slightly more or less than a full frame.

    Posting this in case anybody else is interested or has seen the same problem.
    Wish I could solve it, but for now I'm stuck in the other DAW
     
  18. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Ok that would seem to eliminate a corrupt file.

    It always will - that feature is set up to read actual time code sent in from another device. QT movies do NOT contain this digital information (sorta sounds like fax machine noise)

    Do you do this before you bring in the movie, or after? It can make a difference, but I think I noticed this when audio was involved.

    Without working with the movie here, I can't offer any more advice off the top of my head..... As mentioned, I've never run across this.
     

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