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Mono Output Channel Strip Issues

Discussion in 'Logic Pro X' started by orcasound, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. orcasound

    orcasound Member

    Need a little assistance and advice... Ive been mixing since 2006 (since 2009 in Logic) with a Dangerous 2BUS LT summing box - the dangerous is configured in 8 stereo Channels (stems) - 1-2, 304, etc. - Mixing in Logic, creating stereo outputs for each stem has been easy - actually never used a template, just popped up whenever I assigned them...
    This past week, I sold the dangerous and installed a Rupert Neve Designs 5059 Satelitte Mixer (summing) - Its configured with 16 channels, and they are configured as such.
    In the past I would assign (in Logic) kick and snare to output 7-8 and lead vocal and bass to output 5-6 and then on the front panel of the Dangerous I would engage the "mono" button - this would in essence "mono" those stems respectively - which gave me a 6db on those signals... I got really used to that after 7 years.
    The new Neve unit is configured as 16 indiv. inputs on the front panel. - mono is achieved by... well, the pan pot. So instead of my kick going to OUTPUT 7-8 in Logic and being mono'd on the Dangerous - I need to send my Kick to OUTPUT 7 in Logic.... well apparently the folks in Germany didnt think we needed 'mono' outputs.

    IN logic, on my kick, I assign its output to a Mono OUtput channel 7 .... now logic will create the output channel strip, but it is a stereo ouput (showing input on only the left side), I assume it wants to be stereo by default... I can change it to Mono by clicking the "double circle" - no problem there.
    A trip to the environment - shows the output 7-8 strip - and I need to click the oo button to make it mono.

    I then move on to assign my snare to mono output 8.... Logic will then create an output strip - with no fader, and it appears that it has now changed the channel 7 output to stereo again...

    If I look back in the environment, I can see that the channel 8 output strip has a note that it is being controlled by the channel 7 strip (which is now back to stereo...) I can then toggle the "oo" stereo button on 7 and boom... eight now gets a meter -
    this is very confusing and makes for a real inspiration killer....

    I cannot believe that this is how it should go down - and perhaps I need a logic guro. to talk me down... help.

    Anyone else out there using a 5059 by chance.

    thanks for any assistance or advice.

    Regards
    kj
    orca sound
     
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  3. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Mono/Stereo is a problem in Logic X and I am surprised that there are almost no complaints about that.

    Well, you ran into it ...

    ---

    One solution is to follow the click scheme of the programmer and work around the bugs:

    After you assigned a channelstrip to a mono output, immediately switch the generated stereo output to mono. Then assign the next channel to a mono output and switch the previous output strip back to mono because Logic made it stereo again. Repeat the process until all your channels are routed: assign, switch to mono, assign, switch previous to mono, assign ... and so on.

    If you don't do it this way you may miss output channels or see them only in "All" mode or the channels in the front mixer and the environment are not equally configured or you get wrong output channel names. The latter is the smallest problem of course, but if you get stereo-names for mono channels check the envionment. I've seen different mono/stereo settings in such cases. I don't know if this harms but it is not a good situation anyway.

    ---

    Another way is to make a template with all mono channels prepared.

    You can also prepare the channelstrips in the Environment as we usually did it in Logic versions before 8.

    --------------------

    The vanishing pan knob is obviously intended behavior, because a mono channel routed to a mono output cannot be panned. Well ... mhm ... no comment.

    --------------------

    Mono software instruments don't have mono outputs, you have to go via an aux channel. At least I didn't find another solution yet.
     
  4. orcasound

    orcasound Member

    Mono output strip issue

    Peter thanks for the reply.! I'm glad to some degree that it wasn't just my ineptness :)
    I have to ask .. Why? Why would the logic team (not apple) make us jump through hoops for what should be standard functionality? Apparently in logic9 this wasn't an issue?
    In logic 9'i was still using my dangerous 2bus ... Which was configured as stereo stems - so I never noticed ... But I just made a substantial upgrade and investment to move to this neve 5059... And now it becomes gleaming apparent. I assume the same frustrations exist for someone on logic that is patching out to their neve 8058?
    Really if they expect the DAW to be used on a professional level- they should at least ensure that flexible IO is a given.

    I tried creating a template with the mono outputs set in the environment - but it seems that they revert when a new project from they template is created.

    Sure there are workarounds... But should there have to be?
    Panning the channel strips hard left and hard right comes to mind- that certainly forces the mono outputs on the back end but for kick snare and other mono sources ... Now you've got to go back and change your sends to post fade because post pan now throws off any verb on the snare that is up the middle.

    I've posted this same thread on an couple forums and I'm suprised that folks didn't jump on it and chime in right away- but only you and one other user knew that it was an issue.

    How can we get someone to take a look at this and fix it ? In all honestly this is the kind of thing that will keep professional users away or push them away... Why should we have to jerry rig workarounds for. $200 daw to play nice with a 4k piece of gear. ... Or a 150k console... After those investments ... I think the DAW would be first to go. In my case I hate PT, I love logic ...I don't want to switch ...but the sound finger neve wins out .. It's almost like logic wants us to leave.

    Sorry... Very frustrated

    Kj
     
  5. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    The simple and slightly esoteric answer:

    Don't use even software version numbers. Only odd numbers. It sounds crazy but is also true for Logic.

    What were the best recent versions?
    Logic 5
    Logic 7
    Logic 9

    Guess which version will be really good again :)
     
  6. simon binks

    simon binks New Member

    Dear Peter,

    I note your reference to stereo / panning issues in Logic X.

    I have had this problem since upgrading to Logic X last December. One song I had been working on in Logic 9.1.8 suddenly had no stereo field. The entire mix was in mono.

    When I panned a track - mono or stereo track - right, it just faded out in mono. When I panned (pan) left, it gets louder in mono.

    I work at 24 bit/96 kHz.

    When I tried a fresh project at 44.1 or 48, importing an apple loop, it works but as soon as I go up to 96 kHz, (or 88.2) and import a single stereo 24 bit/96 kHz track, the problem returns - no stereo field and panning right fades out in mono while panning left fades in - in mono.

    What is more confusing is that a couple of times the system HAS worked in stereo and it sounded great - but not for long. Only an hour or so transpired before I noticed that I was once again working in mono.

    This seems a system wide problem. Logic X seems to corrupt Core Audio. Have you found this? Could you elaborate on the problems you have had with Logic X and stereo field/panning?

    I have been in touch with Apple about this but they claim they have never encountered such a problem. After trying all alternatives, I did the logical but unthinkable the night before last - I zeroed the system drive - multiple times for security.

    I disconnected the external 3TB Time Machine Back-Up disk - no possibility of importing a prior software glitch.

    Then I download a clean install of Yosemite (had the same problem on Mavericks - only upgraded to Yosemite as a possible resolve).

    I then got on the phone to the head of Apogee to make sure I had been downloading the correct software for my Symphony 64 card. I had but he stayed on the line as I downloaded it fresh again from the Apogee site.

    I checked permissions and rebooted after each install.

    THEN I downloaded a fresh install of the latest Logic X app.

    The problem remains. I have NOT downloaded any of my Waves, NI, Spectrasonics, Toontrack, etc, software.

    I have used Logic since Gerhard Lengeling consulted me on the construction of Notator Logic in - about 1989. I've used Steinberg, Pro Tools, Digital Performer and others as well. I have just stuck with Logic as I know it and it comes with so many additional add-ons.

    I can engineer a conventional analogue or digital DASH or PCI studio but have platinum records as a composer/guitarist and producer. I.e: I'm not new to this. I have as much or more good hardware in my studio as software.

    My computer is a 2009 4,1 build 8 Core Mac Pro 2.26.

    I have a friend with the exact same system and his works.

    I'm all out - really appreciate any help.

    Simon Binks - simon@simon-binks.com

    2009 4,1 Mac Pro 2.26 8 core, Cinema Display, 32 gig RAM, 1 TB WD Velociraptor 10,000 rpm system drive, 2 x WD Velociraptors in RAID '0' for audio files, Apogee Symphony 64 card, AD16X and DA 16X, Unitor 8, Antelope OCX word clock, Genelec monitors, Dangerous Music 2-Bus Lt summing mixer, Neumann U87 x 2, Mohave, Rhode and other mics, huge Waves collection, Toontrack Superior Drummer 2, Spectrasonics Trillion, UA 6176 pre, Avalon 737 pre, TC M5000 reverb, Roland SRV330 reverb, EMU E6400 Ultra x 2, late 60's Vox AC 30, Dallas Rangemaster, OCD pedal, Marshall JTM 45 pedal, Ibanez TS-808 Tube Screamer, 1955 Fender Stratocaster, 1964 Fender Stratocaster, EC Fender Stratocaster, personalised/sponsored Schecter guitar, 1957 Maton Supreme, Martin x 2, Taylor, Yairi and 1930's Gretsch acoustics, etc.
     
  7. simon binks

    simon binks New Member

    P.S: I have the Dangerous Music 2 Bus summing mixer wired up to the patch-bay but have not used it yet. I am not monitoring through the Dangerous Music 2 Bus. I go digitally out from the AD16X to a Benchmark DAC1 for monitoring - feeding the Genelecs from the Benchmark but when I use headphones from the Mac Pro, just core audio - the problem remains.

    Simon
     

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