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Problem changing CC7 to CC11

Discussion in 'Logic Pro X' started by Marcusmax, May 27, 2014.

  1. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    I just got a new controller keyboard which has 2 faders that are hard-wired to send CC7. I'd like to change one of them to CC11 if possible. I found this link:

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/153403?threadID=153403

    I tried the suggestion but it is not working in that it does not affect the incoming midi message from either fader. Both are still sending CC7. I know it is for an older version of Logic but I thought it might work the same.

    Can anyone help with this or suggest another way to achieve it? Thanks.
     
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  3. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    This is the way to go.

    Here is a screenshot of the Click&Ports Layer. Unfortunately the terrible Logic interface colors make it almost impossible to get easily readable screenshots.

    The yellow frame shows the transformer routing and the part below is the transformer's setting panel.

    [​IMG]


    Please note:

    • CC7 from all devices and all software gets converted to CC11. If you do not want this, do not connect the Sum input but rather the input where your controller comes in. Then cable the Sum input directly to the Sequencer Input.

    • You have 2 Faders sending CC7. If they send on the same channel and via the same port, you can only convert both, not just one of them. Logic does not see which fader you are moving.
     
  4. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    Thanks very much for your reply Peter. Yes, that is exactly how I've done it. The problem is both faders are still showing up in the Midi In readout as "2 7 x (x being the value the fader is currently at)" and "3 7 x". They both simply operate the channel strip volume fader as before. So somehow the Transformer instruction is not being put into effect.

    In terms of your 2nd point, do my Midi In readouts above mean that fader 1 is on channel 2 and fader 2 on channel 3? Logic is seeing something different for each fader but does the first digit refer to the channel or the port? There is a little fader icon before the first number in each case.

    I did get this to work last night but because it was changing both faders to CC11, I deleted the Transformer and tried to do it via the Controller Assignment window, which I've always found highly confusing. I abandoned it after I couldn't figure out how to assign the fader to Expression :redface: but after that the fader didn't do anything, while the other one still sent CC7 as before. So I trashed the com.apple.logic.pro.cs file and then both faders were back to sending CC7 but the Transformer settings now wouldn't work. Could this be anything to do with it, i.e. did trashing that file upset something?

    Thanks again for your help. Sorry if this is too much detail but I'm just trying to be clear as to what's going on. I still have that file if I need to re-instate it.

    Mark
     
  5. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Hi,
    Set the Conditions Transformer "Channel" to 3. This way it will transform Fader 2 only which comes on Ch.3
     
  6. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    Thanks. I have tried that. However I still have the same issue, i.e. the fader behaviour is not changing no matter whether I set the Conditions channel to All or just 3. Still CC7.. :(
     
  7. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Although you can do it if you know the syntax, you don't usually convert values by Controller Assignments. You assign controllers to parameters.

    If you need your CC11 for a specific action, you can use the learn function. In Logic touch the element you want to control, call the learn fuction and move the hardware fader. That's it. The Controller Assignments remember MIDI port, channel, controller number and the type of data. And Logic scales incoming MIDI automatically to the range of the target parameter. Works not always but most times.
     
  8. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    Sounds promising. How do I 'touch' Expression though? I've just tried drawing in some Expression data and selecting it but Expression does not come up under "Learn Assignment for.." It names the last track element I touched, e.g. Solo or Mute.
     
  9. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, this is what Controller Assignments are made for. They are not a generic mapping tool. They map incoming MIDI to existing control elements like buttons, knobs and faders.

    We are not talking about the same thing, let's go one step back:
    What exactly do you want to do with this CC11?
     
  10. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    So they won't map incoming midi, e.g. a hardware fader movement, to midi controller info such as Expression?

    I simply want to convert the incoming CC7 message from one of my keyboard's faders into CC11. I am doing a lot of orchestral stuff, mockups and so on, and I want to be able to use that fader to input Expression info rather than Volume info. I do have an Expression pedal input but I prefer using a fader.
     
  11. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Not in a generic way as you do it in the Environment. Controller Assignments can map your CC11 to a parameter in an instrument plugin for example. If this is a fader that controls Expression, you instantly get what you want.

    • The Logic Environment allows generic MIDI processing independently from the final target of the events. It is very powerful, but you may find it difficult to control plugins this way.

    • Controller Assignments give you less freedom, but can link your MIDI directly to elements in plugins and channelstrips. They do automatic range scaling and other tricks.

    Yes, in the meantime I know that you want CC11 :)
    But what is it supposed to do? Do you send it to an instrument plugin? If yes, is there a knob or fader that controls the Expression of the instrument or is CC11 just internally mapped to Expression?

    The reason for the question:

    If your plugin has a fader or knob for Expression, you can directly control it by Controller Assignments. If Expression is just mapped in the plugin, the Environment may be the only way to control it.
     
  12. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    Ah yes that's clear. Thank you for explaining so fully. I mainly want to use it with East West's Play to control Expression when using libraries such as their Hollywood series, Symphony Orchestra etc. It would be nice to be able to do this with other plugins too. I don't think Play has a fader or knob for Expression but it is mapped to CC11 within the plugin. I do think the environment and the Transformer in particular are probably the way to go here but for some reason it won't work as it should even though I have double-checked my settings and they match those in your screenshot exactly. I'll go back and check all this again though.
     
  13. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    Ok I've just managed to get it to work in the Environment. I think I must have done the cabling wrong before and routed both connections from the output of the Transformer. Silly mistake.. Now I have specified channel 3 in the Conditions and only that fader is sending CC11 and drawing nice Expression curves as I play along! Excellent. The other fader is still sending CC7 which is what I want but for some reason it is not moving the channel strip fader anymore, even though it is drawing volume curves. This is not a big problem as thanks to your explanation of Controller Assignments I can easily map the two faders together if I need to. The only trouble is then I don't get any CC7 curves..

    I can't have it all ways it seems :(. Ah well, the main problem seems to be resolved and thank you again Peter, and Tangra, for your help. Much appreciated.

    Mark
     
  14. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    There is a new feature in the 10.0.7 update that allows CC7 and CC10 messages to be passed directly to the instrument plug-in rather than controlling the channel strip volume and pan parameters as it always has in the past.

    The new setting is found on the MIDI page of the Project Settings, in the General tab. See the screenshot below.This may or may not be the cause of the problem, but it is easy enough to check.
     

    Attached Files:

    • CC7.jpg
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  15. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    Thanks Eli. Yes, that seems to have done it. I now have the option to turn that behaviour on and off. However, the Transformer is no longer working once again! So I seem to be back to square one. Dammit..
     
  16. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Hi Mark,
    Bear in mind that if you have used the Controller Assignments to learn some of the hardware Faders then this Fader MIDI messages will be blocked before the Physical Input in the Click & Ports Environment layer! In this scenario the Fader MIDI can not reach the Transformer or the Sequencer. Try to delete the Controller Assignments for these faders if any.
     
  17. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Does it work again if you disable this Fader/CC7 option in the project settings?
     
  18. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    No, this new project settings aren't assignments. I just tested them and also found some strange behavior. There could be a bug in the new settings but I am not sure yet.

    ----------

    Marcusmax,

    I hope your CC11 transformer comes to life again.

    What about the other fader, do you only want to control the volume or do you need automation too?

    If you need automation, I suggest to use Controller Assignments for this fader. After learning, in the Controller Asignments panel, you can set the fader to work always on the selected channel.
     
  19. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    Well based on this I trashed the Controller Assignments preferences file and lo and behold the Transformer works again! There must have been something left over from what I did there, even if as Peter says these new behaviours are not assignments. (I had been experimenting with assigning the hardware fader to the channel strip one before I was told about the new behaviour.) So I have now set up the Transformer in my orchestral template and saved the file. I just hope it keeps working. I hate when things keep breaking intermittently!

    Thank you Peter. I'm ok with the other fader doing just volume for the time being. Mostly I set that up within Logic's mixer anyway but it's good to know I can also control it from the keyboard fader. I will keep what you say in mind if I want the same control over automation.

    So, here's hoping it's plain sailing from here on!
     
  20. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Sorry, my thoughts were at this new project preference and I did not recognize what Tangra actually meant. Fortunately you did.


    It will work.

    Do you have a nice smooth action over the the whole range of your Expression fader? If it works more aggressively in the bottom or top area, we could make it more musically by just another transformer. Not necessary if you are happy with the fader behavior.
     
  21. Marcusmax

    Marcusmax New Member

    I just opened the project for the first time today and it is still working! I'll see how it goes for a while with the fader action as it is but I'll definitely take you up on that if I feel it could be improved. I imagine the same could apply to the expression pedal which I will use from time to time, despite my preference for a fader.

    Thanks again for your help with this.

    Mark
     

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