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Logic 9 Scaling automation "absolutely" seems to be broken!

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by Eli, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Hi All,

    A friend just emailed me with a problem that is repeatable on my system. Can others try this and corroborate if this feature really seems to be broken:

    * Create some track automation.

    * Select some nodes and try scaling the automation "relatively" by grabbing away from the actual node itself and drag up or down. This seems to work as expected, the automation scales properly.

    * Now try selecting some nodes and scaling the automation "absolutely" by grabbing directly on one of the nodes and clicking and dragging up or down. It doesn't work! It seems to scale the automation relatively the same way it does when you click in the selected area above the node! It doesn't scale it in an absolute manner as expected.

    PS: Neither of us is on Lion yet.
     
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  3. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Eli,

    Indirectly dragging selected automation nodes and direct drag does seem to respond the same on my system: L9.17, OSX 10.7.4.

    Now that you mention it, what would absolute scaling looking like?
     
  4. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Hi Wally,

    It is a straight offset that doesn't affect the actual existing automation itself other than to raise or lower it all equally.

    With absolute scaling, all the automation node relationships remain constant. The entire level is either raised or lowered, but all the lines between the nodes remain the same no matter how high or low you boost or attenuate the entire automation level.

    With relative scaling, as you have seen, the relationship between the nodes is scaled as you go higher or lower.
     
  5. Ginger

    Ginger Member

    Hi Eli,
    absolute scaling works here for many parameters, but not for volume. Try to automate Pan, for instance, and see how scaling works: when you grab one of several selected node, the movement is absolute, when you grab outside a node, it's not.
    I tried it on the Cutoff parameter of the ES M synth, and was a little confused, because sometimes grabbing a node results in absolute movements, sometimes it doesn't , but I guess one just has to be very accurate when grabbing placing the mouse on a node.

    Either the fact that it doesn't work for volume is a bug, or there's some smartness built into this I'm not aware of. I've never missed absolute movement of volume: back when one had to grab outside the node to get non-absolute volume movements, I always did that. The default behavior (when grabbing a node) has changed to what I believe most people need most of the time when dealing with volume: non-absolute movements.

    It's too early in the morning here to figure out if I ever need to move volume automation in an absolute manner. :)
     
  6. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Hi Eli,
    Right now I'm away of my place so can not try but I think I remember something about. As far as I remember I could use some workaround to lock the notes to absolute. My workaround was working with both editors - the Track Automation Arrange view and the Automation Event List editor.
    I.e I Shift select the nodes I want in the Track Automation arrange view (they go selected in the Automation Event List) so I roll any of the selected messages in the Event list. When the very top or very bottom value reach the top range (127) or the bottom range (0), then the selected range is locked and it is not scaled.

    A.G
     
  7. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Hi Tangra,

    Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable workaround. But it does seem like moving automation in an absolute fashion is broken!

    Ginger - You are correct in that I did try it with volume automation. I will try it with pan and other parameters to see if the behavior is consistent or different. Not sure if I will have a chance to get to it today though. I personally do find the ability to scale automation absolutely to be useful. Not all the time of course, but occasionally I do just want to make a straight offset and preserve all the relative automation.
     
  8. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Eli,

    Thanks for explaining the difference. I make local adjustments when needed and haven't used scaled automation as you described.

    I tried adjusting a Channel Eq frequency band and Pan. Indirect and direct dragging of nodes looks the same to me.
     
  9. Ginger

    Ginger Member

    Using the same Logic version and OS version as you, I tried to grab a selection of pan automation nodes again, and the movement was 'absolute'. But it seems that placing the the pointer tool accurately is more important than it used to be.

    I tried the same thing with a selection of nodes controlling one of the Channel EQ frequency parameters, and that worked well too.

    Could this possible bug be project specific? Have you tried this in an empty song?



    ETA: The trick (for other parameters than Volume) may be to place the arrow pointer a pixel or two lower than you otherwise would have done.
     
  10. zerobeat

    zerobeat Senior member

    I just did some volume automation in Logic Pro 9.17 32bit (Snow Leopard) and it works exactly as expected:

    If you grab/drag the automation line directly (after selecting a range of automation) you scale the line absolutely (and therefore the dB values relatively), but if you grab/drag maybe 50+ pixels away from the line you scale relatively (and therefore the dB values absolutely, the way Volume scaling needs to work 99.99% of the time for me).

    The concept also works for other kinds of automation, although in many cases moving the line absolutely is the desired result.

    And the great thing about automation that has a plus and minus (like Pan), is that you can use the same principle to shift the entire line up/down (absolute) or squeeze/expand it further from the zero mid-point (relative).
     
  11. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Just tried some more automation experimenting here. I used an Empty Project as a starting point. Volume automation still would not scale absolutely for me. I tried Pan, a Channel EQ frequency band, and a compressor's threshold parameter, and all three of those worked as expected.

    Zerobeat - it seems you are the only one able to get volume working properly. I wonder what's different on your system??

    I am running Logic 9.1.5 (I get the beach ball at startup with 9.1.6 or 9.1.7) in OS 10.6.8 in 64 bit mode on an 8 core tower.

    PS: Just tried it in 32 bit and same thing - volume doesn't scale as expected.
     
  12. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    What seems to be the case here:
    - Direct dragging a segment or node results in absolute scaling: The selected nodes and segments move as a group. True for pan, eq frequency, but not volume which scales in a relative manner.

    - Dragging a near a selected node results in relative scaling of all selected. True for pan, eq, and volume.

    This seems to confirm Eli's original observations.

    My initial observation (mentioned previously) was with volume which caused my confusion: relative scaling with either direct or indirect dragging.

    At least I'm now clear on what absolute vs relative scaling adjustments look like.
     
  13. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    I revisited this as well here:
    http://www.logic-users-group.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6413&page=2

    I forgot to add to the above that I used an Empty Project in 32 bit mode on both my MBP and MacPro systems. Scaling Volume was consistently an issue.

    Seems like the best we can do is to send Apple feedback which is now easier than ever in 9.1.7: Logic Pro Menu>Provide Logic Pro Feedback.
     

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