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Logic 9 The environment seems useless to me.

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by FUBARd, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. FUBARd

    FUBARd Member

    I know, I'm kind of trolling here but I'm extremely frustrated that I cant figure out how to filter midi output data for a retrofitted synth which goes haywire when sent clock signals. Beyond that, I have no need for an arpeggiator or a signal splitter and thats all the tutorials seem to highlight. I've read the manual and understand what the individual parts do but none of them seem to be all that useful to me. Additionally, what's the point of creating virtual instrument representations of your hardware synths within the environment if all you can do with it is name the presets. I feel like I've been getting used to Logic's seemingly counterintuitive workflow thinking it would eventually pay off once I 'got' the environment and now that I'm getting it, I'm realizing that it's not really as cool as everyone thinks it is. I really hope I'm missing something here. Please someone prove me wrong! :brkwl:

    I WILL hail the sysex capabilities though. Thats awesome that you can, in the environment, create basically what a guy like me would have to wait for some developer to create as a VST sysex editor. Anyone have an idea how to filter clock on an individual object?:hippy:
  3. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    Note on/off?
    Controller data?

    I'm an Environment light-weight, but as a MIDI guitar player I can say that it offers the best means of setting up input filters to remove false triggers and smoothing out (expanding) velocities emanating from a MIDI guitar converter with a limited velocity range (by design to reduce more false triggers ;))
  4. FUBARd

    FUBARd Member

    Oh... you're suggesting I create an array of transformers in parallel to 'apply and filter non matching' for each signal type I actually do want? seems kind of ghetto-rigged. I really am surprised at logic that theres not any better midi filtering capabilities than it seems. anyone else have any ideas or opinions on this matter? Sorry for the rant BTW
  5. EdgarRothermich

    EdgarRothermich Senior member

    Easy on popooing the Environment. It is one of the things that sets Logic apart from the rest of the DAWs. I'm consider myself an intermediate user but for what I'm using it, It is amazing.

    Having said that I'm also hoping for a visual update of that Environment to take if out if of its OS9 appeal. Unfortunately that didn't happen for the last couple of upgrade revisions. Instead the developer made it simpler and managed to find a solution that allows the user not even go there in the first place. I'm kind of nervous for the next Logic X that it will disappear completely which would be a great loss, but would fall in line with Apple's current strategy (Final Cut Pro X anybody) - The Lord (almighty Steve) has given it and the Lord has taken it away.

    But as long as we have it. embrace it. However if you have no use for it then just ignore it. I wouldn't make sense either if a Logic user gets frustrated over use the Score editor but doesn't read score or has any use for it.

    Most tutorials shy away to go to deep into the Environment (limited target audience). THe link below is for Logic7 but it has little more depth to it.
  6. FUBARd

    FUBARd Member

    agreed it's powerful and super cool for many MANY applications. what i meant to say was that I'm extremely frustrated at the fact that in this one situation which i had a great amount of faith that the almighty environment would hook me up, it failed to do so w any amount of poise. i'm certain theres a way to filter clock out for an individual instrument w its open nature but I'm at quite a loss at being able to figure it out and am quite feeling upset as a result. sorry to offend but i feel like i'm back in algebra class here lol!
  7. EdgarRothermich

    EdgarRothermich Senior member

    Now you are wrong again:
    It is not Algebra, it is "Advanced Algebra"
  8. Atlas

    Atlas Senior member

    To filter out Clock...

    If all you intend is to filter out MIDI clock or MTC, you could use your MIDI patchbay or MIDI interface or your vintage synth SysEx parameters settings to filter out these type of MIDI data, or alternately you could go into the Apple AudioMIDI Setup utility to do just that.;)

    :thmbup:BTW, your idea to create an array of Transformer objects is a good one! Even if at first glance this seems overkill this could eventually develop into something more useful that you could use into other projects or situations, you didn't thought of at first. Once created, your environment object could be turned into a macro that you can incorporate into other environment projects. It's like creating your own building blocks library gradually over time...

    To appreciate, you have to look further away, raise your perspective...
  9. CSeye

    CSeye Senior member

    You'd be cussing up storm if you were using Cubase or DP both of which I've used as well. The graphical nature of the Environment makes it the most intuitive to set up. It would be more algebraic in Cubase with it's Input Transformer. Same with DP from what I recall.

    Set up an array of transformers..? Yes! I'm doing that now rather than fiddle with the very '80's LCD on a Ztar. I've solved Ztar response issues more effectively with less effort in the Environment compared to poking hardware buttons while navigating LCD screen to screen.

    Having used a variety of DAW, Edgar is absolutely correct when stating that the Environment is what sets Logic apart from other DAW. From my perspective, the Environment is what makes Logic the best DAW for MIDI.

    Looks like Atlas has zeroed in on the solution.

    Hope you get this straightened out.
  10. FUBARd

    FUBARd Member

    Right Atlas, I thought of using the hardware to filter it too but I don't have any gui for the motu express 128. maybe a search for that is in order. I'll poke around for any implementation I can find but info on a prophet 10's midi retrofit kit usually comes up pretty thin. It's a bit left field I think. I also tried the OSX midi settings. Doesn't seem to change anything. When receiving midi clock, the vintage piece drops and hangs notes which is making me think that it might actually be the motu express thats getting overloaded w all that data at once or even an unlikely clock loop. seems like something i'd have kept from happening during setup but it's never too late for gear to go buggy. I appreciate all the patient assistance with this. I guess I'll begin attacking the issue from other directions if this one doesn't work. If only the transform could filter clock... GOSH!
  11. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Wrong thoughts ! Like the other guys pointed, the Logic Environment makes this DAW unique! You can develop amazing Midi processing complex tools, Hardware Synth Editors etc. In the last years I have developed new generation "Smart" complex Environment tools where I could create special Macro headers where you can store the Environment presets, internal Macro Clipboards which give you the possibility to manage the presets, edit them, copy/paste etc.
    You can have a look at my Web page and watch the videos for some extra complex tools I'm talking about say RMX Power CTRL, Logic SC (Mixer Snapshot Console) as well as go to the "Bulgarian Virtual Orchestra" and watch the video where I show a very extra intelligent tool called "Chord Translator" which can recognize input chords and transform to a custom sample note so you can play musically with chord samples.

    Nope, here is the big Logic Environment power ! Here is an old version (see the Fig.1 below) of Alpha Juno 1 Logic Environment sysex editor. I.e it replaces the expensive PG300 hardware editor for the Alpha and it is much better cause I added Vector faders for dual control.
    Something more, in the new version I could program so called "Twin Editor" which response to both CC and Sys messages - the idea is you record or draw CC messages (you can easily edit them in the Hyper Draw) and CCs are transformed back to Sys on the Editor out to be able to control the vintage synth.

    Now right to your question !
    Here I will say NO! The Logic Environment Transformer objects (or any other object) can not filter System midi data like "Timing Clock". No such option in the Logic Preferences either Settings. Even that the "Timing Clock" can not mess anything in Logic (it is a Sync option only) and it is invisible or not present in the Environment (to my opinion it is filtered in the Physical Input and redirected to the Sequencer).
    Can you describe why you want to filter this data and what issue require that? I guess the problem is not the Clock data, it can be something like midi feedback, wrong midi settings or routings etc.
    By the way "Timing Clock" can be filtered using a third party app like the freeware Midi Pipe (you can use it with Logic via IAC for example or via its own Pipe virtual cables - see Fig.2 below)

    Please provide more info as much as possible just a staring point. I'll do my best to assist all the time !


  12. paulnajar

    paulnajar Senior member

    TyPing on the phone so I'll keep it brief.

    Midi clock filtering in the synchronization preferences page - not environment.

    Regarding everything else just because you don't find it useful does not mean it's not useful for many.

    Kind regards
  13. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    I'm sorry Sir, I have already posted that in my previous post but I commented the Midi clock as an synchronization option not "Filtering". Where is the Midi Clock "Filtering" in the Sync dialog - I'm sorry ?

  14. FUBARd

    FUBARd Member

    Wow Tangra, I do appreciate the detailed response! Once I get home this evening I'll play w the hardware to eliminate the possible issues you mentioned. Again thanks so much for the extremely helpful and detailed response. I will definitely be checking out your pages. :)

    And Paul, I've gone through the options and preferences and I can only find where logic can send to all or two separate devices. I need to send to all BUT two separate devices on the same interface. That was actually the first place I looked before getting my hopes up that the Environment would fit the bill. I see it doesnt do clock. Weird, what if I wanted a knob to control the tempo of a single drum machine, or outboard arp? Maybe? Lol!

    As always I do enjoy everyone's positive input and will report back tomorrow.
  15. jisley

    jisley New Member

    I'm an avid fan of the environment. I am an EWI player, woodwind player, composer and arranger and I use a ton of custom environment objects and programming in my professional and creative work.

    Check out muse site, for some of the ways I'm using the environment and for tutorials, tips and tricks about the environment.

    It's an extremely powerful tool, and there are several great sources for help with it. Any of Toby Pittman's tutorials at audiotuts and anything by sflogicninja. Also the environment tutorials at are excellent.
  16. Xill

    Xill New Member

    The environment interface couldn't be clunkier, the instructions barely cover it's functions, but I have no doubt it is powerful. I wasted 2 days trying to figure out how to rout more than 16 midi channels and gave up. I couldn't find step by step help around and it had some bugs over the top.

    It just shouldn't be that complicated to do those simple things.
  17. paulnajar

    paulnajar Senior member

    In the Synchronisation Project settings in the MIDI sub tab. Logic gives the option of sending MIDI clock to two different destinations.

    If you want to split hairs this is not filtering per se but it CAN amount to the desired effect depending on how many destinations you need to send clock to.

    In your setup how many external devices require MIDI clock signals?

    Apart from this (and now I'm typing on a computer not a phone) the environment is incredibly versatile at processing so many things MIDI that I'm assuming you must have been super frustrated when you typed your opening post.

    We're lucky to have it inside a commercial DAW product and not have to resort to something like Max MSP to achieve so much. It's very robust as well and while you might feel stringing a few transformers together is a bit cobbled together, Apple could spend good time to build a pretty new GUI for the same functionality and it might make you feel better but it would not work any better...

    Kind regards
  18. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    I'm pretty familiar with these options but as you say they are for "Sending" Midi Clock out of Logic. The OP is asking for "Filtering" which means he wants to filter Incoming Midi Clock which is quite different!
    Many people who are not involved in the deep Environment ( having enough skills to do what they need ) grumble about they must patch a chain of multiple Transformers say for filtering the "Harmful" incoming control data which affects the channel strip like CC3,7,9,10,28-35 etc. In such scenario they are quite lazy and ask for "New GUI" or functions say just one transformer which can do the trick. Here I must say that the trick can be made with the current environment using just ONE Transformer as a "Hyper Custom Filter" so the objects and the design is OK. There are much more important features which must be Fixed rather than the Gui. For example:

    Environment Fixes future request list by Audiogrocery

    1. The Cable Limitation. According to my deep tests a given midi message can travel up to 397 cables after that it mysteriously disappears.
    2. The Sysex faders "Checksums" do not work as expected - same for the "Sys Mapper" Transformer template.
    3. The Transformers and the Faders must support 14Bit Fader messages cause many of the today Software Plugins support more than 127 parameters like ES2 for example.
    4. The Arpeggiator object must be fixed as well cause there are a few major problems around it.
    5. The Chord Memorizer "Listen" function is broken in Logic 8/9.
    6. A new Transformer or Sys fader feature must be added for Input control and transform each byte of the incoming Sysex messages ( currently it is possible to control the Sys bytes of the output messages using "Sys Mapper Transformer" ). As an example the Midipipe supports such feature in its "Message Factory"
    7. There is a problem with some very extra environment schemes which use lots of objects and cabling. After packing the scheme into a Macro some of the cables break down and the macro does not work - same in L8/L9.
    8. The Meta Event 99 bang feature is still week. It can bang a given amount of say fader settings but not too much...

    They are much more things which can be updated or added as new features I think. What I guess is that Apple will try to make some kind of "Sweet" Environment design (which takes CPU cause of its heavy GUI) like they did in the Main Stage ( The Main Stage is nothing more than the old Logic Environment updated to new GUI ). This will limit the free Environment design so you will have some pre-programed "easy" midi processing inc GUI which will be welcome for many new users I guess but not for ones who are used to customize their own setups, design new gears, Midi Complex tools, Hardware Editors etc.

  19. FUBARd

    FUBARd Member

    Paul, I do honestly think it could use a graphical upgrade but what would be far more useful in my humble opinion would be better training material and functional examples beyond an arpeggiator and related trinketry. All the soft synths, samplers and even basic dynamics processors come w presets useful for common situations but the environment has none. It's like a modular synth being totally open but baffling to anyone knowing nothing about synths. Oh, and I didn't actually say it was useless... I said it seemed useless to me. ;)

    To all, I suppose I spoke wrong. I wanted the environment to filter the clock output from the project's output to a couple of my outboard units who don't do well with certain things clock being one of them. I realize that I'd have to be some kind of idiot to not realize I could decide what gets clock in the preferences pane but when you consider I need clock out to all BUT two devices, rather than all, one, or two devices which are the only options in the preferences/options. It doesn't help. At all. Thus my looking to other options like the environment and then being disappointed when it didn't work. In fact I cant imagine I'd ever have a use for using the environment to filter the input and that seems like what it's most suited for. I just use a simple midi controller and would ever only use its output manipulation which I really do enjoy for things like sysex programming. and yes, the suggestion that the enviornment was useless because it didnt fix the one issue i'd ever turned to it for was out of anger and in fact useless it's self :D

    Tangra, I like the option of the midi pipe on an IAC between logic's out and my interface. Great suggestion! Very useful and possible total fix. I greatly appreciate your keeping up and offering positive constructive help :thmbup: I've still not had a chance to fiddle w the physical I/O yet but have a good feeling you might be on to something.

    In conclusion, nothing on earth is totally useless, even if it seems like you're being told to do math in music class :confused:
  20. FUBARd

    FUBARd Member

    Right, and I have something like 9 units spread across 8 ports on the motu express 128 apart form the two I don't want clock to. If that helps. Motu's forum hasn't answered so I'm assuming theres no option there.
  21. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Opps, this is quite different explanation ! All the time you use Environment and "Filter" terminology which gives the idea you want to filter incoming Midi Clock.
    So my first explanation about the Sync dialog options is valid as well as the Paul's one in this scenario !

    Have a look at the image below. I have set the Transmit Midi Clock Destinations 1 & 2 boxes to "Off". If you need two devices to receive Midi Clock only, just select them in the Destinations 1 & 2 boxes (you have exactly two custom choices only)



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