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Logic 9 transition inaccuracies

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by profundity, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. profundity

    profundity New Member

    Why is it once I buy a piece of software, THEN do I start finding all the bugs?

    There must be a solution to this though...

    So I'm making this mix, other people's music. Using 4 tracks, overlapping audio clips here and there, sometimes dialogue and film samples on top of the music.

    There's a lot of very precise transitions, to match beats and all. And at first things seemed fine... maybe I just didn't notice it as much, but it seems worse now... what's happening is that, with some transitions, when I've taken a clip and shortened it a bit, played around with length... well once I cut it perfectly, and replay, it seems fine.

    But then when I replay the clip starting farther back in the song, by the time it gets to the transition, it's not accurate at all. Off by as much as a measure.

    ALSO... when I start playback just a little behind the transition, I seem to get less inaccuracy, but still some. The only way it plays totally accurate is if I begin right before the overlap.

    Any idea why this is? Did I just spend 2 days on a mix for nothing??

    Help is greatly appreciated.
     
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  3. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    If you are working to picture, is it possible you don't have the correct frame rate set?
     
  4. profundity

    profundity New Member

    working to picture... you mean like a soundtrack to visuals? no, it's just a mix of music.
     
  5. JuanTahnahmahrah

    JuanTahnahmahrah Senior member

    Did you record the four tracks of "other people's music" directly into Logic? Or were they recorded separately by other people, and then you imported them into Logic individually?

    What is more important: keeping the rhythmic pulse perfect, or using the underlying music bed to highlight the emotional impact of the dialogue?


    Are you asking how much you should be paid, or how long it should take to finish your mix?
     
  6. gdoubleyou

    gdoubleyou Senior member

    The online help IS the manual, search flex time.

    Make sure your audio conforms to the session tempo.

    :cool:
     
  7. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Do you have any tempo changes in the project? If you do, this could be effecting the timing of things when you are sliding regions around. Hit "T" and take a look.
     
  8. profundity

    profundity New Member

    > Did you record the four tracks of "other people's music" directly into Logic? Or were they recorded separately by other people, and then you imported them into Logic individually?

    These are artists from my label, mp3's I dragged into the arrangement window.



    > What is more important: keeping the rhythmic pulse perfect, or using the underlying music bed to highlight the emotional impact of the dialogue?

    The timing is important for the transitions to work, as are the dialogue clips. With Cubase on my old macbook I had no issues with cutting and pasting audio, in fact the entire program felt smoother, with Logic when I zoom in and out it feels kind of cheap. There are some nice features but it feels buggy in comparison.

    Anyhow, I don't see a reason why it should play the clips any different when I was zoomed in and starting right before the transition, than when I backed it up first. This is bizarre to me.



    > Are you asking how much you should be paid, or how long it should take to finish your mix?

    Just frustrated that there's no such thing as perfect software for my needs. Mixing should require simple editing features but nothing has everything I need. I just thought Logic sounded good, instead of buying the expensive version of Cubase as the home version doesn't have every feature I want.



    > Make sure your audio conforms to the session tempo.

    I just watched a video on flex time... it may have something to do with this, but doesn't seem so.



    > Do you have any tempo changes in the project? If you do, this could be effecting the timing of things when you are sliding regions around. Hit "T" and take a look.

    No tempo changes. I don't mess with the project tempo at all, I just open a new project, drag in some audio and cut and paste and move around.

    Is the problem possibly that I have to bounce every clip in Logic after I shorten it by dragging on the corner? That it's not accurate for some reason if I don't do so? Because that's something that I've never experience before, with Cubase or years ago, Cool Edit.

    The fact that playback timing is different when I play right before the edit, then when I back it up, that's the confusing part.

    Thanks for the help guys.
     
  9. JuanTahnahmahrah

    JuanTahnahmahrah Senior member

    Immediately after importing the MP3s into Logic, did your project play through without any glitch?

    Is it possible you are inadvertently "stretching" the audio regions when you mean to be cutting or "slipping" them?
     
  10. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    So let me attempt to understand:

    You are grabbing pieces of music, and placing them end to end, then using crossfades to go from one piece to another?

    Then adding a dialog track once you have the music parts where you want them?

    I understand being frustrated when you want to figure something out, but if I/We don't understand what it is you are wanting to accomplish, it's pretty difficult to help.

    Q) is the tempo of the music constant? If so, are you making it into the song tempo? that would really help you to line things up, just edit to the beat, then drag to the correct place.

    A comment: in all the years I have used Logic, a part will always play back at the same place regardless of where I start playback UNLESS I either change the tempo, or drag the corner of the audio region while holding down the option key (which can alter the length of the file, therefore increasing or decreasing the amount of time from where it was to begin with, so a file would no longer line up properly.)

    Would you please try another way of asking the question?
     
  11. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Is it possible you are inadvertently altering the anchor position of some of the regions when you are editing them? Are you doing any of your editing in the Sample Edit Window? Have you been "locking" any of your regions in the Arrange Window - just trying to give you things to think about that could point to the source of the problem. Logic definitely does not have the type of problems you describe. It is almost certainly pilot error on your part somewhere. The task now is to find where!
     
  12. profundity

    profundity New Member

    > Immediately after importing the MP3s into Logic, did your project play through without any glitch?

    I didn't notice glitches at first... although I started with just a couple audio clips, and have built it to about 3 hours in length.


    > Is it possible you are inadvertently "stretching" the audio regions when you mean to be cutting or "slipping" them?

    Could be, but I'm doing the same thing as in past audio editors, which is taking the bottom corners of a clip and moving it's length around, for the most part. Actually I have been splitting a fair bit of them too. And duplicating them at times.


    > You are grabbing pieces of music, and placing them end to end, then using crossfades to go from one piece to another?

    I put them normally on 2 tracks and overlap. I try all sorts of creative transitions to make them feel natural. The dialogue often helps "gel" them together, if the transition seems a bit clunky on its own. So then I have three tracks going at once.



    > is the tempo of the music constant? If so, are you making it into the song tempo? that would really help you to line things up, just edit to the beat, then drag to the correct place.

    I never touch anything to do with the tempo. I've never used sequencers, I'm all about cutting and pasting and trimming waveforms, and instead of beatmatching as most seem to by adjusting tempos, I never work with BPMs I just choose songs that work together.


    > A comment: in all the years I have used Logic, a part will always play back at the same place regardless of where I start playback UNLESS I either change the tempo, or drag the corner of the audio region while holding down the option key (which can alter the length of the file, therefore increasing or decreasing the amount of time from where it was to begin with, so a file would no longer line up properly.)

    I tried to play around with what you're saying, but doesn't make sense yet. when I hold the option key down I can't seem to drag.



    > Is it possible you are inadvertently altering the anchor position of some of the regions when you are editing them?

    Maybe... the regions don't really make sense.



    > Are you doing any of your editing in the Sample Edit Window?

    Not much. Just normalizing.



    > Have you been "locking" any of your regions in the Arrange Window

    Haven't tried anything like that yet.



    > Logic definitely does not have the type of problems you describe. It is almost certainly pilot error on your part somewhere. The task now is to find where!

    It feels so much like a bug though. Maybe it's not. Thing is, when you say it doesn't have problems... when one zooms into a project, by mouse-clicking the ruler and dragging downwards, with Cubase, as I remember it, you could smoothly zoom in to a spot, really close. With Logic it takes much longer to zero in, especially if it's still playing, as it's glitchy, it doesn't follow the mouse movements well. It just doesn't feel like it was programmed for that level of precision when it comes to editing waveforms.


    > Would you please try another way of asking the question?

    So here's what I'm doing...

    I drag an mp3 or wav into the project that I believe fits after the last song, on the track beneath it. I overlap it and listen to hear if it's in key, and how close the rhythm is. I delete it and then go through a dozen more that sound close.

    When I finally find something nice, I decide if I want to use the beginning of the song, or somewhere in the middle, depending on how the beats match up. Let's say I want to start in the middle, so I drag the bottom left corner of the clip to the ideal spot, and snug it up again. I zoom really really close to match the beats perfectly. Zoom back out. I'll leave a bit of an intro before the beat kick in. Fade it in if need be, and fade the previous track out. Or just split it or drag it to the spot I want to end it at, before I do a fade.

    Then I play it all back, to hear if it works.

    So there, got it perfect, very happy with how one beat ends and the next begins, it's in tune, it's absolutely perfect. But then I play it back from 8 measures earlier or so, and it's off. The first song sounds early, and extends too long. When I zoom in and play it right before the transition, it's perfect once again. When I play like 3 measures back, it's a bit off but not as much, maybe only off by a beat or two.

    This doesn't happen with every transition, only a few. I'm assuming it's how I edited them but I haven't figured out what the trigger is.
     
  13. profundity

    profundity New Member

    ...okay so I've been trying to test this some more.

    It doesn't matter which track it is, they all have the same issues, at times.

    I can solo a track and have all the same issues. What's happening is, at the end of a clip (am not noticing at the start of clips) it ends perfectly if I start within a couple of measures. But if I back it up a few more measures, it doesn't end at where I've dragged the end of the clip to be. It plays a bit farther. ALSO it doesn't totally respect the fade. I should mention all my fades are done with automating volumes.

    If I back it up farther, the clip plays farther beyond the end of the edited ending. I can go back further, like half a minute, and it goes even farther beyond what it's supposed to.

    Farther than half a minute or so I don't think it make much more of a difference.

    This only happens at times. There's lots of finely edited clips, with volume changes and truncated endings, that work perfectly fine.
     
  14. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Do you by any chance have any hidden tracks? Is it possible that when you were dragging region boundaries in the Arrange Window that you maybe inadvertently had multiple regions selected (happens to me all the time!).
     
  15. profundity

    profundity New Member

    you mean tracks underneath the one i can see? just checked, that's not the case here, but yeah i've done that too.
     
  16. profundity

    profundity New Member

    ...about the zooming in and out, the method i was using, using the ruler, that doesn't work nearly as well as cubase. but now i found that the bottom right zoom tool does work quite smoothly so that's probably what most use?
     
  17. tigerman

    tigerman Senior member

    for zoom in keep pressed control and alt and draw a box of the portion you want to be zommed, to zoom out keep pressed control and alt and click on an empty zone of the arrange, it will go back to the previous zoom, it's the faster way possible to work with zooms in logic.
    it remembers multiple zooms aswell
     
  18. JuanTahnahmahrah

    JuanTahnahmahrah Senior member

    I switched from Cubase to Logic 5.51 (for a PC) back when Emagic was still selling it. I jumped to Logic Studio 8, then 9. The learning curve for Logic was much steeper than Cubase, and to think the two programs will have simlar keystrokes or key commands is probably not so great an idea. Your experience with zooming is a case in point.

    Your project, if it is three hours long, sounds complex, considering you have recently acquired Logic. You might want to clue in everybody on your hardware setup, not that it is a problem, but funky hardware drivers were why I started with Cubase and not Logic. Purchasing new hardware got Logic airborne for me (way back when).

    Sounds like you have made an exceptional effort so far. I had an unrelated problem just a few days ago that you might think about. I tried to burn a CD with Waveburner (part of Logic Studio). There were only five tracks: the first was a wave (bounced out of Logic from an original 48Hz 24 bit file down to a dithered 16 bit 44.1 file). I tried to import four more AIFF-C audio files (from CDs), but Waveburner would change the imported files to some obscure tune! ...I assumed something to do with file copy protection, but don't really know why. Anyway, I imported the AIFF-C files into Logic one-by-one, and then bounced them out as wave files. When the wave converted files were added to Waveburner, everything was fine.

    Not to say you are dealing with copy protected material, but my suggestion in the future would be to import (into Logic) any MP3s (or non-wave files) one-by-one, followed by a bounce to convert them all to one standard wave file format. May not be your problem, just a suggestion.
     
  19. profundity

    profundity New Member

    Cool, thanks! Yeah i guess i have a lot to learn. I just thought i could buy it and knock out a mix this week but that may prove impossible, not all editors are built alike.
     
  20. profundity

    profundity New Member

    I'm using an iMac 2.8GHz Core 2. 4 gigs of ram. Upgraded recently to Snow Leopard.


    I can see how bouncing them right away might be a good idea, but the songs in question came directly from the artist themselves, definitely no copy protection on these. Thanks for the suggestions though.
     
  21. profundity

    profundity New Member

    Oh man, I feel like just ending it. Not the program, my miserable existence, Logic has almost broken me : (

    A couple of times an entire track, all the clips in it, were messed up. It's so finicky I guess, somehow I chose the entire track, although never on purpose, and dragged them all at once.

    However it's not as simple as just moving them back, as I thought. Some were fine. At least this time. Various tracks were off, the volumes were messed up, I can't even see a pattern here it's totally @#$%ed. Just about. This is the second time I'll have to go through all the transitions, with 60 songs in this project, and fix every one. Well last time it wasn't every one but now it seems it's most of them, I have to check them all very closely.

    I have no idea what I did, I do know though that even if I fix them all, I STILL can't find why some of the transitions don't play accurately, so it might all be for nothing. I've spent a week on this mix and Logic is turning out to not be designed for simple waveform editing. If I don't jump off one of the neighboring mountains in the next 24 hours, I'm going to go purchase Cubase again.
     

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