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Logic 9 Using DX7s mod & pitch controller (EFM1)

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by xrc, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. xrc

    xrc Member

    I'm using an old Yamaha DX7s. I run it thru midiman Midisport 2 x 2. I usually select "Software" instrument for the track. No problem playing the software synths (Garageband, Absynth or Logic). Although it's connected via
    Midi, I'm not using "Output" midi. What I would like to do is...use my two round Pitch & Modulation wheels and assign them to two EFM1 (or any other Logic synth) instead of using the mouse, to move up & down etc. Can anyone explain the easiest way to do this? Thank you
     
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  3. Atlas

    Atlas Senior member

    Command-K will open the controller assignment window, using the Expert or Easy view to adjust parameters to your needs, clicking on the Learn button, voila.
    A little reading of the chapter regarding this topic is important to do this though... Once you get the gist , it's pretty straight forward...
     
  4. xrc

    xrc Member

    Thank you so much! I'm sorry that I can't always get around to playing... I kind of halfway got the two dials to work in conjunction with the "pitch and modulation" wheels on my DX7s. But, not exactly do I have total control (and knowledge) to assigning the keys to the knobs etc..
    I have noticed that I've lost a few of the low end (left) of the DX7s. Therefore when I hit the key it's "mute". Ummm I've never ran into this problem before.

    Please tell me where (or/or how) to get all my notes back on the DX7s. I figure I made a mistake somewhere in assigning a key on the DX7s. Please point me in the right direction. Where did I go wrong? How can I assign all my keys to be heard? (easily).
    thanks for your time and patience! My best
     
  5. xrc

    xrc Member

    Holy Monkey Butt....I just tried Garageband for the heck of it. and ALL my DX7s notes were playable and making sound. ummm, so I guess it isn't my DX7s settings. Now where do I go from here? any suggestions?

    It's probably something very simple which I've overlooked... thanks
     
  6. xrc

    xrc Member

    DX7s Logic & Mainstage (Learn mode)

    Lo and Behold. I have finally gotten a little bit more info on how to use my DX7s and Logic & Main Stage. Yes, I do have some problems ending up my slider also moving a knob at the same time, although I didn't assign them to the same action etc.

    Does anyone know to what extent I can use my DX7s as a controller? No matter what I do the Volume slider (DX7s) just isn't "Learning" no matter what I select. But the two sliders to the right (CS1 & CS2) can learn whatever I assign to them just by pressing "Learn" and touch either of those sliders. Also the pitch & modulation wheels can also "Learn" with the same method. Though the pitch wheel has a "0" (zero) in the middle...and springs back after either moving the wheel above (up) or below (down).
    The pitch wheel is great for example, using an Indian sitar and being able to bend the notes (strings) to get that twanging sound of a real sitar.

    So, for example...I "Learned" for assigning the "Pitch Wheel" to my 4 patches.
    It worked fine other than it sprung passed the two middle patches, therefore only patch #1 and #4 had any effect. Of course, I changed the pitch wheel settings to something else.

    So getting to my question...Is the Yamaha DX7s limited to what knobs, buttons and sliders are able to use the "Learn" assign method. Or are there some internal Midi settings that I might be able to change? Any help would be greatly appreciated. thanx!
     
  7. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Just trying what works and what doesn't is a blind fligth. First, install Midi Monitor, set its preferences to display decimal values and look what your controller actualy sends.

    If you see Control Changes or Aftertouch, they both have a channel, a number and a value and therefore can be mapped to continuous parameters. Program Changes can switch something because they have only channel and value. Pitchbend is another message, has a channel and a continuous value and can be mapped to continuous parameters.

    Since Pitchbend is a continuous value you cannot simply switch between 4 patches because you get all intermediate values also. For that you may be able to tweak Controller Assignment parameters but I rather think you have to go to the Logic Environment and program a kind of switching patch by setting thresholds (ranges) for the 4 values you need.
     
  8. Colin Shapiro

    Colin Shapiro Senior member

    I used to have a DX7 many years and I'll try to recall a few things....

    First:
    The Volume slider won't "learn" because it is just a volume slider for the keyboard. I don't think it sends any MIDI data. (See Peter's post above)

    Second:
    You should really use the pitchwheel and modwheels for....pitch and modulation. These are really important and common parameters that can be used in almost every software synth and sampler around.

    Rather use CS1 & CS2 for specific tasks - you can assign different CC no's to them according to your needs.

    The original DX7 only transmitted on MIDI channel 1. I assume your DX7s is better-equipped...

    Regards
    Colin
     
  9. xrc

    xrc Member

    Thanks both to Peter & Colin

    Wheww I downloaded the MidiMonitor...wow that's really a bit steep for me (advanced). Since I'm slow at learning (midi stuff), it'll take me time to learn.
    As far as Colin's advice. Now, I know the DX7s (can't learn) the volume slider.
    Luckily I can transmit on all 16 DX7s midi channels. I'm also wondering if the push buttons such as Data Entry On/Off or Poly/Mono or Key shift buttons are able to learn (Mainstage/Logic9) so far they haven't re-acted to my learn selection.

    Basically, I'd like to know what buttons are O.K. to use "Learn" with. Or is it possible to to assign CS1 CS2 to use on more than one parameter change? Or do I have to get into MidiMonitor to do that? thanks...
     
  10. Colin Shapiro

    Colin Shapiro Senior member

    xrc:
    You already have a built-in MIDI monitor in Logic.
    Control-click on the Transport bar.
    You'll get a menu - select Customize Transport Bar
    A window opens. In the Display column, make sure that MIDI Activity is checked. (It probably was on by default)

    Play a note on your keyboard - you'll see info there eg MIDI channel, note number & velocity.

    Now move a slider or press a button on your DX7. You'll see info there - MIDI channel, CC no & value. That will tell you what data the sliders and buttons are sending.
     
  11. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Well, I wouldn't call that single line a MIDI monitor ... :)

    If you receive a couple of messages at once, the Logic MIDI activity line can hardly help you. Without knowing what you get (or should get) you can easily assign events which do not work in the Controller Assignments, at least not without some tweaking. The "real" Midi Monitor shows you almost everything and with a little experience you can easily tell if a certain message should work for you or not. Not to talk about problems with connections, dead devices, MIDI loops etc.
     
  12. xrc

    xrc Member

    Midi and Mainstage/Logic

    Peter & Colin...thanks for the advice and points. Let me give you some basic questions (or problems) I have. Most you have already answered. Colin as far as the Midi transport info you mentioned. Yes, all that is on. since the DX7s volume is NOT a midi channel, now I know I can't assign that. Referring to the info (Transport Bar) both Pitch and Modulation wheels show Ch. 16 when touching them 1~127...and CS 1 and CS2 sliders show the same. the only other DX7s button that shows any sign of movement are the Data Entry "Yes" and "No" buttons, which when pressed show "X 1 0 0". In the Transport Bar Midi connection area. Which I don't understand means.

    I am NOT using my DX7s to play Midi (from my DX7s). I just use it as a controller.

    Concerning "Midi Monitor" it works fine as far as a large list of things happening. Other than that I'm at loss. Hey what can an old "Woodstock '69" veteran do...who first started using Amiga computers in the late 80's.

    I'd just like to use a basic Mainstage set-up. But, (for example) when I assigned my CS1 slider to Volume (#9) and hit "Learn" once I touch the slider it changes to "Pan". I kept going back to the Mainstage Edit to scroll to the learn (Screen Control Inspector) Hardware...the Modulation Wheel can be assigned. But, the CS1 & CS2 can't be assigned.

    Anyway, I have to close here. Are there any basic tutorials that you might know of that can show me (or a list of exact steps) which I just can assign the two wheels & two sliders and the On/Off to what I'd like?

    I'd like to use the On/Off to turn on the Loopback or Playback. I can manually turn them on, but they run thru the patches....thanks sorry time and earthquakes...
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Let me try to sort your thoughts and provide hopefully helpful comments.

    We do not call a slider a "midi channel". It's just a slider which does not send MIDI.


    You forgot to tell the type of message and the controller number. However, I can tell you what these wheels usually send:

    A Modulation wheel sends CC1 (= Control Change number 1)
    A Pitch Wheel sends Pitch Bend messages.

    If you don't know what to look for, the MIDI input field in Logic tells you very little. The tiny symbols are hard to differntiate, some symbols are used for different message types and some readouts are definitely wrong. For example, Pitchbend shows controller number 7 in the Logic transport field, but Pitchbend does not have a controller number. Just a channel and a value.

    Confusing, not?
    This is where Midi Monitor comes into the game. You can clearly identify the message types:
    [​IMG]
    You did not tell us the message type and controller number. If the two sliders really send the same messages as the wheels, you cannot use them as they are. I don't believe that.

    Clear the display of Midi Monitor, move each fader just a little and copy/paste the lines of Midi Monitor here in the forum.


    And again :rolleyes:
    The Logic MIDI input shows you an X as message type and does not provide further information. In Midi Monitor you would see which message it actually is:
    [​IMG]
    If it is a "real" SysEx message, then it can probably control another DX7 unit but you can hardly use it in Logic.

    If it is a MMC message, it might control the transport of Logic. Then, from the Logic main menu, select File —> Project Settings —> Synchronization/MIDI and activate this checkbox:
    [​IMG]
    Then tap on the buttons of the DX7 and look if Logic does anything like play, record, stop, etc. If it does nothing, disable the checkbox. If it does something you like, leave the checkbox on.


    What means not to "play Midi"?
    MIDI is just a data stream.


    But you have seen the "Clear" button to erase the display. And you have seen the "Remember up to xxx events" field. Type the number 20 into this field and you will only see the last 20 lines.

    Honestly, MIDI monitor is an invaluable tool for everyone who deals with MIDI. Learn to use it and your live will be a lot easier whenever you connect keyboards, controllers, MIDI interfaces, MIDI software etc.
    [​IMG]
    C'mon boy!
    I was 17 years old at Woodstock. And if you really feel too old you can still play Jazz :)


    First, Volume is #7, not number #9.
    Second, Pan is #10.
    So why should Mainstage switch number 7 or 9 to number 10? There is something else wrong.


    No. Impossible without exact information. Move your sliders CS1 & CS2, post the lines of Midi Monitor here as text and we can tell you what you can do with these sliders and what not.

    Furthermore, if we exactly know what your sliders do, we can simulate them and work if we were on your DX7.


    Normally you use a button to switch something. You can use a slider as well but you may want to keep the slider for something else ...

    =====

    You plan to work with Mainstage? The controllers of the DX7 do NOT fit for such a task. Don't you want to buy a dedicated controller?

    The Korg nanoKONTROL is very small, you can even mount it on top of the DX7 with velcro tape. It costs just $60 and gives you 9 sliders, 9 knobs, 18 buttons and a transport section. You connect it via USB to your Mac and get a software editor too.

    If your hands are not free you could get a Behringer FCB1010. This is a foot controller with 10 switches and two buttons. A software editor is also available (iFCB).
     
  14. xrc

    xrc Member

    Lots of info (Thanks)

    Thanks for taking a lot of time. Basically, Main stage is running O.K. as I get used to what I'm doing more. Midi Monitor seems to work fine. Of course the settings zoom by fast. I took screen shots as you suggested.

    Screen shot 2012-02-17 at 4.07.06 PM.jpg


    And I will be getting the Korg NanoKontrol2 tomorrow. So, hopefully that takes me passed some of the problems. Another question concerning Loopback....I have one patch with two Loopback channel strip instruments. I assigned the On/Off DX7s button to turn them On/Off. (To start the playback of the Loop. But, If I turn on of them on/off it turns both of them on/off. So, I guess I can only turn on all (two in my case) Loopback with the on/off button.

    I also tried to download MidiPipe which some have suggested to help assign Patch changes. Right now my Mac keyboard Up/Down arrows, do the trick.
    One more question. On the Loopback, when I start there's a Metronome 4 beat click first. I'd like to get rid of it. I thought I saw (used) a setting to only use the Metronome for a count-in, then turn off. But, now with the Metronome set the metronome runs through the loop. (Unless I click it off).
    Where's just the 4 beat Count-In setting? I checked Prefs?

    Well, thanks again.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Nothing of great use there, only data increment/decrement. Often hard if not impossible to map that to software.

    My recommendation: forget the DX7 for controlling and wait for the nanoKONTROL you've ordered.

    ---

    Most certainly you will continue to use Midi Monitor. Do yourself a favour and set the preferences do decimal values to see Controller numbers instead of the ancient MIDI names:

    [​IMG]
    And in your case, with the DX7 online, open the filter section and disable "Active Sense". Then you don't get that avalanche of values but only what you need to see:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    See the Mainstage Manual "Using the Loopback Group Fuctions".

    To use two buttons, the two Loopback instances need to be in different groups. If you set one Loopback to group "A" and the other one to group "B" you can start/stop them with two buttons. However, I don't know how to have two instances running simultaneously. If one of them runs and I start the other one, the first one finishes the current loop and stops when the other one begins.


    I think you have the count-in AND the metronome on. Use only the count-in button because the other one turns the general Mainstage metronome on and off.
    [​IMG]

    MidiPipe is another good tool and sometimes you need something like this to compensate for the non-existing input mapping of Mainstage. But before you deal with such a software (which is not trivial in certain situations) first try what you can do with your new MIDI controller. It has 24 buttons overall. You may fall in love with two of them for the Patch up/down thing. Or more buttons to jump to specific Patches if you want. The nanoKONTROL has also 4 "Scenes" which can be differently configured and switched by a button. This makes 24 x 4 = 96 freely configurable buttons. Should be enough for most applications.
     
  17. xrc

    xrc Member

    New NanoKontrol2 (????)

    Well, I'm going to be going to work. I just got the NanoKontroller2, but seem to have some strange problem. Using MIDI Monitor, it sees and shows me moving the sliders.

    But, I'm stuck on the DETECT (Nano set-up) I've installed the Mac driver.
    I'll include a snapshot. I'll need more time to work with the button situation running the Loopback (Mainstage) In one patch, they both turn on/off at the same time. In another patch. I can turn either one of the two on/off when I push the button. I guess it's my mistake somewhere in assigning. I'm really not knowledgeable in Midi.

    If you can give me some basics (about my set up (MidiStudio) that'd be cool.
    So, I'm to the point where I can't even download (with my Korg Pin number) the software yet!

    Every time I try to select DETECT. I push what the manual says: Cycle-Left/Right Marker on the NanoKontrol but the up-date box stays ghosted.

    Help!
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    My nanoKONTROL is older, not a 2 version. I just learned that there are big differences. More buttons but one fader less and no longer 4 scenes on the new device :-(

    However, I do not know the updater in your screenshot. And I did not find any post about problems with it. Have you tried the editor, does it work?


    The Audio/MIDI Setup (what you call "Midi Studio") looks good. nanoKONTROL is here and works as I can see in Midi Monitor. Nothing to do for now.


    Download software with a PIN? Everyone can download the editor and the drivers from the Korg website (click on "Support and Downloads").

    As I said, I do not know this updater.
     
  19. Atlas

    Atlas Senior member

    To be blunt: not much! DX-7 was a great and revolutionary synth when it came out. It sure is still a nice piece of gear, but it was not intended to be a MIDI controller. In fact, when you compare the design of the DX-7 to its contemporary, it was created with a very different approach of synth programming which was going in the opposite direction of its competitors featuring tons of knobs. The DX-7 sports only few buttons and a couple of sliders. To change parameters, you have to navigate deep in the interface using several buttons pushes, and then use the sliders or other buttons to adjust the targeted parameter.
    So my advice is that if you are looking at a MIDI controller, you 'd better consider acquiring a real MIDI controller...
     
  20. xrc

    xrc Member

    DX7s

    thanks...I just got the Korg NanoKontrol 2 yesterday. So, off to learning that.
    The DX7s is fine for the Mod/pitch wheels and two sliders and the On/Off button. I want to mainly use in Main Stage. But, playing around and setting the Nano up today...It works fine with Logic 9...but just getting to work with Main Stage now. I guess I'll have to re-assign my Concert and patches. thanks
     

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